[doc] Re: re still doesn't idle ok

["blackaddertoo" <blackaddertoo@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

Hi

thanx Mike and Nick and anyone else who've helped.

i live near wolverhampton.

a good idea to drive...but...is not yet mot'd/registered.
i know i could book her in then drive to the test station but i have 
to do the track rod ends (bolts are rusty and want to make sure they 
are safe)
i need a front screen (but that could wait till after an mot run.

but main part i need a small section of frame welding, on passenger 
side by fuel tank.
tank has got to come out again.

i will probably run the last checks on the coil feed, and if that 
does not work, readjust the screws and back out the garage and warm 
up (extinguisher at ready as first time for 12 years)

i may also put 12v across the idle motor to make it shut, then 
reconnect and see if it reopens.

i also wondered if i am looking in the wrong place for the fault, as 
obviously the idle motor feeds the air down the bypass brass pipe, 
whereas the screws feed it though the main manifold inlets.

so is my bypass pipe ok ( i have removed and replaced the seal)

i also have not tried to start while holding the flap down a touch 
(i think this enriches the mixture???)

thanx for the help, and believe it or not i enjoy the challenge of 
working on the car.

Regards

Steve



--- In doc-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Mike Bosworth" <mike.bosworth@xxxx> 
wrote:
>
> Hi Steve
> 
> If your car idles 'ok 'with the brass screw method and is ok to 
> drive ,then taking it for a real good run is going to help, 
> especially if its been sat some time like it appears to have been.
> 
> At the end of this run how see how well the car has performed and 
> run, does it smell like its overfueling, missing, poor 
acceleration 
> etc etc, also an exhaust gas analyzer will give you a good 
indication 
> of how well the car is set up mixture wise, if thats way off its 
not 
> going to help for starters, but as has been previously said, dont 
> start fiddling with the mixture screw willy nilly  ( now theres a 
> phrase for you :) ) 
> 
> Take it for a real good drive and let us know how it goes. If it 
goes 
> well then at least you have narrowed it down.
> 
> I agree with all Nick is saying, and unfortunatly in this instance 
> there is only so much help people can give without actually seeing 
> the car, but we will keep trying are there any other owners near 
by 
> to you?  ...
> 
> 
> Kind Regards
> 
> Mike
> #2001
> 
> 
> > however i cannot understand why the car idles with the brass 
screws 
> > adjusted.
> > perhaps i need to see if the car warms up fully and drives ok 
that 
> > way?
> > thanx again for your assistance.
> > 
> > Regards
> > 
> > Steve
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In doc-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Nick Tomlinson 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > The coil connection is for pickup for the ignition amplifier 
> which 
> > is separate.
> > > If this was faulty your car would not run at all (i.e. no 
spark)
> > > 
> > > You will need to remove the coil cover and check for 
continuity 
> > between terminal marked "1" or "CB" and the pin at the idle 
speed 
> > ecu multiplug. Wire is white and slate I think. If this cable is 
> > open circuit then the idle speed ecu has no engine speed 
feedback.
> > > 
> > > The blue wire (shielded) goes to the fuel computer and is from 
> > the oxygen sensor input cable.
> > > 
> > > You should now have checked all the wiring and assuming you 
have 
> > put the diode in the correct way round (stripe to the throttle 
> > switch) there is nothing else I can suggest apart from removing 
the 
> > idle control valve and looking at the rotary valve when you 
first 
> > put the ignition to position 2. The valve should be controlled 
to 
> > fully open. If the valve fully closes then the 2 control wires 
are 
> > on the wrong way round or the plug has been shove on the wrong 
way 
> > round.
> > > 
> > > This is assuming that the ecu and valve have been checked out 
OK 
> > btu I think you have had that confirmed already.
> > > 
> > > One last thing I can think is that the ecu multiplugs have 
been 
> > put on the ecu the wrong way round but it is easy to tell if the 
4 
> > wired one goes to the right hand side socket on the ecu when 
> viewing 
> > the pins on the ecu.
> > > 
> > > NickT
> > > 
> > > blackaddertoo wrote:
> > > Hi Nick and all
> > > 
> > > managed to slope off a site early, with tools in the boot and 
do 
> > > some more testing.
> > > 
> > > checked diode with meter...reads 700 on diode test and tried 
with 
> > a 
> > > test light and jump battery, lights one way and not the other 
so 
> i 
> > > think the didode is ok.
> > > 
> > > now with key on, in ignition positive power is ok at middle 
> > > connection idle speed motor.
> > > 
> > > ground connection at idle mutliplug checks ok for continuity 
with 
> > > body panel ie -ve ok.
> > > 
> > > checked continuity of other two connections at idle speed 
motor 
> > plug.
> > > checks ok at ecu multiplug, ie no break in wire
> > > 
> > > checked pulse coil connection on left side of rear engine at 
fire 
> > > wall...checks at 550 ohms...is this ok as specialT say this 
> should 
> > > be about 600+ ohms
> > > 
> > > the only lead lest to check is the feed from the coil...do i 
take 
> > > off the coil cover and investigate there? i could not quite 
see 
> > > where the leads go...assuming it connects at the ecu mutliplug.
> > > 
> > > tried again to start..runs 10 seconds then chugs and dies as 
if 
> > the 
> > > engine is being starved of air/petrol...but it did idle fine 
with 
> > > the brass screws adjusted.
> > > 
> > > one thing to note...a mouse has been living with the ecus in 
the 
> > > corner behind the drivers seat.
> > > the blue wire (i think it is the feed for the 02 sensor 
maybe?) 
> or 
> > > is the the coil connection has a small amount of chew marks, 
> > > exposing the wire below...does not look like the wire itself 
has 
> > > been damaged, however i think this looks like a shielded cable 
so 
> > > can't be good.
> > > maybe i might have to remove all the mutliplugs and the metal 
> > > support and check all the wiring out.
> > > if the lambda ecu/wiring was faulty would the car idle with 
brass 
> > > screw adjustment? i thought not?
> > > 
> > > thanx for any help.
> > > 
> > > a mouse also chewed through my headlight wiring and the rear 
of 
> > the 
> > > indicator plastic!!!! haven't found any dead ones though.
> > > 
> > > regards
> > > 
> > > Steve
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In doc-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Nick Tomlinson 
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > The resistance test is a simple one on a diode and you 
remember 
> > > correctly.
> > > > Diodes though can become 'leaky' when the PN junction breaks 
> > > down which is why you check with the diode function. This will 
> > show 
> > > the voltage drop across the junction and depending on type 
should 
> > > show no voltage drop one way and between 500mV and 800mV the 
> other.
> > > > 
> > > > "
> > > > "Put your multimeter to volts. Connect the red cable of 
meter 
> to 
> > > > > jump start post. Use black lead to check for throttle 
switch 
> > > input 
> > > > (AT THE ECU MULTIPLUG) meter should read battery voltage 
with 
> > > > throttle closed (switch 
> > > > > operated) and no voltage with throttle open.""
> > > > according to the workshop manual, does this input not just 
earth
> > > > when the switch is closed (car at idle) so to test i earthed 
it 
> > > with 
> > > > diode removed then tried to start car.
> > > > "
> > > > Yes, the unit does earth this switched point when the 
throttle 
> > > is closed.
> > > > The test I give will show if there is any feedback voltage 
from 
> > > the other circuit showing the diode has gone short, leaky or 
open 
> > > circuit. I am presuming that you earthed this input at an 
earth 
> > > point like the engine block or better yet the -VE battery post.
> > > > 
> > > > Hope the circuit diagram I sent to you makes the connections 
> > > clear.
> > > > Chances are you have an earth lead off somewhere so the unit 
> > > isn't earthing at the earth pin.
> > > > 
> > > > It's always harder to explain in words what you could do 
> > > yourself in 20 minutes.
> > > > 
> > > > This problem will be fixed soon.
> > > > 
> > > > NickT.
> > > > 
> > > > blackaddertoo wrote:
> > > > Hi Nick
> > > > 
> > > > thanx for the reply. Don't worry you can talk technical as i 
> > used 
> > > to 
> > > > do a bit of hobby electronics, building transmitters etc, 
> simple 
> > > > logic circuits etc.
> > > > 
> > > > i thought the screw which has a lead to it earthed the ecu.
> > > > i will recheck the multiplug earth.
> > > > 
> > > > i will check for continuity from ecu multiplug to idle 
motor. 
> > did 
> > > > not have any wire long enough yesterday, as the car is 
parked 
> > away 
> > > > from home.
> > > > 
> > > > "Put your multimeter to volts. Connect the red cable of 
meter 
> to 
> > > > > jump start post. Use black lead to check for throttle 
switch 
> > > input 
> > > > (AT THE ECU MULTIPLUG) meter should read battery voltage 
with 
> > > > throttle closed (switch 
> > > > > operated) and no voltage with throttle open.""
> > > > according to the workshop manual, does this input not just 
earth
> > > > when the switch is closed (car at idle) so to test i earthed 
it 
> > > with 
> > > > diode removed then tried to start car.
> > > > 
> > > > the diode, i must be wrong but i thought it would read 
> > continuity 
> > > in 
> > > > one direction ie no resistance one way and 100% the other, 
but 
> i 
> > > > couldn't remember back to my electronics days.
> > > > 
> > > > Regards
> > > > 
> > > > Steve
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > --- In doc-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Nick Tomlinson 
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > You said you checked the earth by:
> > > > > "earth check with continuity tester from screw into base 
to 
> > car 
> > > > body, 
> > > > > to ecu multiplug"
> > > > > 
> > > > > This mounting screw just holds the ecu to the metal frame 
> > which 
> > > > is earthed.
> > > > > The earth on the ecu is actually one of the pins on the 6 
pin 
> > > > multiplug so check this first using the test:
> > > > > 
> > > > > "Put your multimeter to volts. Connect the red cable of 
meter 
> > to 
> > > > > jump start post. Use black lead to check for earth at ecu 
> > MULTI 
> > > > PLUG, meter 
> > > > > should read battery voltage."
> > > > > 
> > > > > Check continuity of all wires from the idle speed ecu plug.
> > > > > Especially those to the idle speed motor.
> > > > > 
> > > > > "so how do i check the input from the coil/distibuter 
(which 
> i 
> > > > assume 
> > > > > gives the rpm signal (also runs the rev counter input?)"
> > > > > 
> > > > > Said this in last message 
> > > > > "You can check for continuity using the resistance setting 
on 
> > > > the 
> > > > > multimeter and check for wire continuity between the 
switched 
> > > side 
> > > > > of the coil to the ecu plug, (remove the ecu first). If 
there 
> > is 
> > > a 
> > > > > suppressor, temporarily disconnect it in case this has 
gone 
> > bad."
> > > > > 
> > > > > Your test on continuity test through the diode would give 
a 
> > > > result dependant on the positive feed from your multimeter 
for 
> > the 
> > > > continuity test. This will be blocked or passed through (in 
> > > laymans 
> > > > terms) due to the characteristic of the diode itself, hence 
the 
> > > > diode test.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Put the diode back in the circuit and do the test as in my 
> > > > previous message
> > > > > 
> > > > > "Put your multimeter to volts. Connect the red cable of 
meter 
> > to 
> > > > > jump start post. Use black lead to check for throttle 
switch 
> > > input 
> > > > (AT THE ECU MULTIPLUG) meter should read battery voltage 
with 
> > > > throttle closed (switch 
> > > > > operated) and no voltage with throttle open."
> > > > > 
> > > > > Do you have a circuit diagram of the idle speed ecu ?
> > > > > 
> > > > > NickT.
> > > > > 
> > > > > blackaddertoo wrote:
> > > > > hi Nick
> > > > > 
> > > > > thanx for the post...i know a long one but here hoes..
> > > > > 
> > > > > earth check with continuity tester from screw into base to 
> car 
> > > > body, 
> > > > > to ecu multiplug
> > > > > 
> > > > > connected test light to main power ecu multiplug...lights 
> with 
> > > > > ignition each time (tested fuse-ok)
> > > > > 
> > > > > check throttle switch input before/after diode, continuity 
> > > before 
> > > > > (with earth) non afterbut reads about 700 on doide test on 
> > meter
> > > > > from your comment this looks about right but removed diode 
> > > > > completely to test further. does not activate continuity 
> > buzzer 
> > > on 
> > > > > positive or neg current...thought it should.
> > > > > 
> > > > > have not checked coil to ecu or ecu plug to idle plug
> > > > > 
> > > > > thermister has been replaced a couple of weeks ago...reads 
> > about 
> > > > > 1800 ohms cold so that is ok i think.
> > > > > 
> > > > > tried earthing the throttle input and starting the 
car....car 
> > > did 
> > > > > the same...runs for 15 secs then chugs and dies.
> > > > > 
> > > > > car idles ok (1500rpm) with brass screws adjusted so i 
assume 
> > co 
> > > > > adjustment is ok otherwise it would not run?
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > so how do i check the input from the coil/distibuter 
(which i 
> > > > assume 
> > > > > gives the rpm signal (also runs the rev counter input?)
> > > > > 
> > > > > i'm running out of things to test but surely my problems 
are 
> > > here 
> > > > > somewhere.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Regards
> > > > > 
> > > > > Steve
> > > > > 
> > > > > --- In doc-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Nick Tomlinson 
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > How did you check the earth connection at the ecu multi 
> plug?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Have you checked for a switched connected at the ecu 
> > multiplug 
> > > > > from the throttle switch?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Put your multimeter to volts. Connect the red cable of 
> meter 
> > > to 
> > > > > jump start post. Use black lead to check for earth at ecu, 
> > meter 
> > > > > should read battery voltage.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Put your multimeter to volts. Connect the red cable of 
> meter 
> > > to 
> > > > > jump start post. Use black lead to check for throttle 
switch 
> > > > input, 
> > > > > meter should read battery voltage with throttle closed 
> (switch 
> > > > > operated) and no voltage with throttle open.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > With the ECU plugged in, check the multiplug that goes 
to 
> > the 
> > > > > idle speed motor, the centre pin should have 12v on it 
(with 
> > key 
> > > > in 
> > > > > ignition and tuned to position 2) continuously. The ecu 
> > > > momentarily 
> > > > > earths the outer pins to open and close the motor.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > You can check for continuity using the resistance 
setting 
> on 
> > > the 
> > > > > multimeter and check for wire continuity between the 
switched 
> > > side 
> > > > > of the coil to the ecu plug, (remove the ecu first). If 
there 
> > is 
> > > a 
> > > > > suppressor, temporarily disconnect it in case this has 
gone 
> > bad.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > The white lead from the distributor to the ecu is from 
the 
> > > > > negatively switched side of the coil. If this was short 
then 
> > the 
> > > > car 
> > > > > would not run at all.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > The Diode should be tested using diode function on the 
> > > > > multimeter ideally not resistance.
> > > > > > Reading should be between 500 and 800 with test leads 
one 
> > way 
> > > > > round on the diode, and no reading (ie infinite) the other 
> way 
> > > > round.
> > > > > > The diode is there to stop feedback voltage going to 
this 
> > > > > circuit, as the throttle microswitch operates a couple of 
> > other 
> > > > > circuits too.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I would say from your resistance tests that this diode 
> would 
> > > > > appear to be open circuit.
> > > > > > Temporarily connect this wire to permanent earth for 
idle 
> > > > > testing purposes only. Does the car idle now?? If it does 
> then 
> > > the 
> > > > > diode will need replacing. Note which way round the diode 
is 
> > > when 
> > > > > you removed it and replace it with another the right way 
> round.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I am presuming that you have check for wire continuity 
> > between 
> > > > > the idle speed motor multiplug and the idle speed ecu 
> > multiplug.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Have you measured the thermister resistance?
> > > > > > Do this by using your multimeter on resistance and 
connect 
> > to 
> > > > > the 2 pins on the idle speed ecu multiplug. If you get no 
> > > reading 
> > > > > (open circuit) then the connector to the thermistor 
connector 
> > > plug 
> > > > > may have fallen off or the thermistor itself has gone bad.
> > > > > > If you get no resistance, you can make some short fly 
leads 
> > to 
> > > > > enable the multiplug to be connected to the ecu by 2 pins 
(on 
> > > the 
> > > > 4 
> > > > > pin block) and the thermistor ecu inputs to a 10 kilo ohm 
> > > resistor 
> > > > > to simulate the thermistor. If the car now idles then this 
is 
> > > the 
> > > > > problem.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > NIckT.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > blackaddertoo wrote:
> > > > > > Hi all
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > an update on my idle problems
> > > > > > idle ecu and idle motor checked and working by martin at 
> > DMUK.
> > > > > > now removed motor, blocked pipes and adjusted 
screws...car 
> > > idle 
> > > > ok 
> > > > > > at 1500 rpm.
> > > > > > checked power to ecu ok at plug, checked switch ok at 
> engine 
> > > but 
> > > > > > diode reads no resistance either polarity. (should it?) 
n 
> > > moved 
> > > > > for 
> > > > > > further testing.
> > > > > > checked ground connection at ecu - Ok.
> > > > > > put Eecu and motor back in, shorted the 
diode/microswitch 
> > > input 
> > > > to 
> > > > > > earth...car idle 30 second then dies. exactly the same 
> > problem.
> > > > > > removed diode short...idle 30 secs then dies.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > so i am left to check the input from the distributor 
> (should 
> > > the 
> > > > > car 
> > > > > > idle if this is dead and hence the ecu does not know 
engine 
> > > > > speed??)
> > > > > > and if the leads from the ecu to motor are OK.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > if i put a test light on the connector at engine end and 
> > > switch 
> > > > > > ignition, should there be a short positive signal on the 
> one 
> > > (to 
> > > > > > either close the motor or open?)
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > then remove the microswith...do the same and the other 
lead 
> > > > should 
> > > > > > go positive.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > that is correct is it not, middle lead to motor is 
ground 
> > and 
> > > > the 
> > > > > > other run motor positive one way and positive the other 
to 
> > > close 
> > > > > the 
> > > > > > air valve??.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Thanx for reading this!! and sorry to bore you. i am 
> > > determined 
> > > > to 
> > > > > > resolve this (and enjoy it really!!)
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
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