[doc] Re: re still doesn't idle ok

["Mike Bosworth" <mike.bosworth@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Hi Steve

If your car idles 'ok 'with the brass screw method and is ok to 
drive ,then taking it for a real good run is going to help, 
especially if its been sat some time like it appears to have been.

At the end of this run how see how well the car has performed and 
run, does it smell like its overfueling, missing, poor acceleration 
etc etc, also an exhaust gas analyzer will give you a good indication 
of how well the car is set up mixture wise, if thats way off its not 
going to help for starters, but as has been previously said, dont 
start fiddling with the mixture screw willy nilly  ( now theres a 
phrase for you :) ) 

Take it for a real good drive and let us know how it goes. If it goes 
well then at least you have narrowed it down.

I agree with all Nick is saying, and unfortunatly in this instance 
there is only so much help people can give without actually seeing 
the car, but we will keep trying are there any other owners near by 
to you?  ...


Kind Regards

Mike
#2001


> however i cannot understand why the car idles with the brass screws 
> adjusted.
> perhaps i need to see if the car warms up fully and drives ok that 
> way?
> thanx again for your assistance.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Steve
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In doc-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Nick Tomlinson 
> wrote:
> >
> > The coil connection is for pickup for the ignition amplifier 
which 
> is separate.
> > If this was faulty your car would not run at all (i.e. no spark)
> > 
> > You will need to remove the coil cover and check for continuity 
> between terminal marked "1" or "CB" and the pin at the idle speed 
> ecu multiplug. Wire is white and slate I think. If this cable is 
> open circuit then the idle speed ecu has no engine speed feedback.
> > 
> > The blue wire (shielded) goes to the fuel computer and is from 
> the oxygen sensor input cable.
> > 
> > You should now have checked all the wiring and assuming you have 
> put the diode in the correct way round (stripe to the throttle 
> switch) there is nothing else I can suggest apart from removing the 
> idle control valve and looking at the rotary valve when you first 
> put the ignition to position 2. The valve should be controlled to 
> fully open. If the valve fully closes then the 2 control wires are 
> on the wrong way round or the plug has been shove on the wrong way 
> round.
> > 
> > This is assuming that the ecu and valve have been checked out OK 
> btu I think you have had that confirmed already.
> > 
> > One last thing I can think is that the ecu multiplugs have been 
> put on the ecu the wrong way round but it is easy to tell if the 4 
> wired one goes to the right hand side socket on the ecu when 
viewing 
> the pins on the ecu.
> > 
> > NickT
> > 
> > blackaddertoo wrote:
> > Hi Nick and all
> > 
> > managed to slope off a site early, with tools in the boot and do 
> > some more testing.
> > 
> > checked diode with meter...reads 700 on diode test and tried with 
> a 
> > test light and jump battery, lights one way and not the other so 
i 
> > think the didode is ok.
> > 
> > now with key on, in ignition positive power is ok at middle 
> > connection idle speed motor.
> > 
> > ground connection at idle mutliplug checks ok for continuity with 
> > body panel ie -ve ok.
> > 
> > checked continuity of other two connections at idle speed motor 
> plug.
> > checks ok at ecu multiplug, ie no break in wire
> > 
> > checked pulse coil connection on left side of rear engine at fire 
> > wall...checks at 550 ohms...is this ok as specialT say this 
should 
> > be about 600+ ohms
> > 
> > the only lead lest to check is the feed from the coil...do i take 
> > off the coil cover and investigate there? i could not quite see 
> > where the leads go...assuming it connects at the ecu mutliplug.
> > 
> > tried again to start..runs 10 seconds then chugs and dies as if 
> the 
> > engine is being starved of air/petrol...but it did idle fine with 
> > the brass screws adjusted.
> > 
> > one thing to note...a mouse has been living with the ecus in the 
> > corner behind the drivers seat.
> > the blue wire (i think it is the feed for the 02 sensor maybe?) 
or 
> > is the the coil connection has a small amount of chew marks, 
> > exposing the wire below...does not look like the wire itself has 
> > been damaged, however i think this looks like a shielded cable so 
> > can't be good.
> > maybe i might have to remove all the mutliplugs and the metal 
> > support and check all the wiring out.
> > if the lambda ecu/wiring was faulty would the car idle with brass 
> > screw adjustment? i thought not?
> > 
> > thanx for any help.
> > 
> > a mouse also chewed through my headlight wiring and the rear of 
> the 
> > indicator plastic!!!! haven't found any dead ones though.
> > 
> > regards
> > 
> > Steve
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In doc-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Nick Tomlinson 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > The resistance test is a simple one on a diode and you remember 
> > correctly.
> > > Diodes though can become 'leaky' when the PN junction breaks 
> > down which is why you check with the diode function. This will 
> show 
> > the voltage drop across the junction and depending on type should 
> > show no voltage drop one way and between 500mV and 800mV the 
other.
> > > 
> > > "
> > > "Put your multimeter to volts. Connect the red cable of meter 
to 
> > > > jump start post. Use black lead to check for throttle switch 
> > input 
> > > (AT THE ECU MULTIPLUG) meter should read battery voltage with 
> > > throttle closed (switch 
> > > > operated) and no voltage with throttle open.""
> > > according to the workshop manual, does this input not just earth
> > > when the switch is closed (car at idle) so to test i earthed it 
> > with 
> > > diode removed then tried to start car.
> > > "
> > > Yes, the unit does earth this switched point when the throttle 
> > is closed.
> > > The test I give will show if there is any feedback voltage from 
> > the other circuit showing the diode has gone short, leaky or open 
> > circuit. I am presuming that you earthed this input at an earth 
> > point like the engine block or better yet the -VE battery post.
> > > 
> > > Hope the circuit diagram I sent to you makes the connections 
> > clear.
> > > Chances are you have an earth lead off somewhere so the unit 
> > isn't earthing at the earth pin.
> > > 
> > > It's always harder to explain in words what you could do 
> > yourself in 20 minutes.
> > > 
> > > This problem will be fixed soon.
> > > 
> > > NickT.
> > > 
> > > blackaddertoo wrote:
> > > Hi Nick
> > > 
> > > thanx for the reply. Don't worry you can talk technical as i 
> used 
> > to 
> > > do a bit of hobby electronics, building transmitters etc, 
simple 
> > > logic circuits etc.
> > > 
> > > i thought the screw which has a lead to it earthed the ecu.
> > > i will recheck the multiplug earth.
> > > 
> > > i will check for continuity from ecu multiplug to idle motor. 
> did 
> > > not have any wire long enough yesterday, as the car is parked 
> away 
> > > from home.
> > > 
> > > "Put your multimeter to volts. Connect the red cable of meter 
to 
> > > > jump start post. Use black lead to check for throttle switch 
> > input 
> > > (AT THE ECU MULTIPLUG) meter should read battery voltage with 
> > > throttle closed (switch 
> > > > operated) and no voltage with throttle open.""
> > > according to the workshop manual, does this input not just earth
> > > when the switch is closed (car at idle) so to test i earthed it 
> > with 
> > > diode removed then tried to start car.
> > > 
> > > the diode, i must be wrong but i thought it would read 
> continuity 
> > in 
> > > one direction ie no resistance one way and 100% the other, but 
i 
> > > couldn't remember back to my electronics days.
> > > 
> > > Regards
> > > 
> > > Steve
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In doc-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Nick Tomlinson 
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > You said you checked the earth by:
> > > > "earth check with continuity tester from screw into base to 
> car 
> > > body, 
> > > > to ecu multiplug"
> > > > 
> > > > This mounting screw just holds the ecu to the metal frame 
> which 
> > > is earthed.
> > > > The earth on the ecu is actually one of the pins on the 6 pin 
> > > multiplug so check this first using the test:
> > > > 
> > > > "Put your multimeter to volts. Connect the red cable of meter 
> to 
> > > > jump start post. Use black lead to check for earth at ecu 
> MULTI 
> > > PLUG, meter 
> > > > should read battery voltage."
> > > > 
> > > > Check continuity of all wires from the idle speed ecu plug.
> > > > Especially those to the idle speed motor.
> > > > 
> > > > "so how do i check the input from the coil/distibuter (which 
i 
> > > assume 
> > > > gives the rpm signal (also runs the rev counter input?)"
> > > > 
> > > > Said this in last message 
> > > > "You can check for continuity using the resistance setting on 
> > > the 
> > > > multimeter and check for wire continuity between the switched 
> > side 
> > > > of the coil to the ecu plug, (remove the ecu first). If there 
> is 
> > a 
> > > > suppressor, temporarily disconnect it in case this has gone 
> bad."
> > > > 
> > > > Your test on continuity test through the diode would give a 
> > > result dependant on the positive feed from your multimeter for 
> the 
> > > continuity test. This will be blocked or passed through (in 
> > laymans 
> > > terms) due to the characteristic of the diode itself, hence the 
> > > diode test.
> > > > 
> > > > Put the diode back in the circuit and do the test as in my 
> > > previous message
> > > > 
> > > > "Put your multimeter to volts. Connect the red cable of meter 
> to 
> > > > jump start post. Use black lead to check for throttle switch 
> > input 
> > > (AT THE ECU MULTIPLUG) meter should read battery voltage with 
> > > throttle closed (switch 
> > > > operated) and no voltage with throttle open."
> > > > 
> > > > Do you have a circuit diagram of the idle speed ecu ?
> > > > 
> > > > NickT.
> > > > 
> > > > blackaddertoo wrote:
> > > > hi Nick
> > > > 
> > > > thanx for the post...i know a long one but here hoes..
> > > > 
> > > > earth check with continuity tester from screw into base to 
car 
> > > body, 
> > > > to ecu multiplug
> > > > 
> > > > connected test light to main power ecu multiplug...lights 
with 
> > > > ignition each time (tested fuse-ok)
> > > > 
> > > > check throttle switch input before/after diode, continuity 
> > before 
> > > > (with earth) non afterbut reads about 700 on doide test on 
> meter
> > > > from your comment this looks about right but removed diode 
> > > > completely to test further. does not activate continuity 
> buzzer 
> > on 
> > > > positive or neg current...thought it should.
> > > > 
> > > > have not checked coil to ecu or ecu plug to idle plug
> > > > 
> > > > thermister has been replaced a couple of weeks ago...reads 
> about 
> > > > 1800 ohms cold so that is ok i think.
> > > > 
> > > > tried earthing the throttle input and starting the car....car 
> > did 
> > > > the same...runs for 15 secs then chugs and dies.
> > > > 
> > > > car idles ok (1500rpm) with brass screws adjusted so i assume 
> co 
> > > > adjustment is ok otherwise it would not run?
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > so how do i check the input from the coil/distibuter (which i 
> > > assume 
> > > > gives the rpm signal (also runs the rev counter input?)
> > > > 
> > > > i'm running out of things to test but surely my problems are 
> > here 
> > > > somewhere.
> > > > 
> > > > Regards
> > > > 
> > > > Steve
> > > > 
> > > > --- In doc-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Nick Tomlinson 
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > How did you check the earth connection at the ecu multi 
plug?
> > > > > 
> > > > > Have you checked for a switched connected at the ecu 
> multiplug 
> > > > from the throttle switch?
> > > > > 
> > > > > Put your multimeter to volts. Connect the red cable of 
meter 
> > to 
> > > > jump start post. Use black lead to check for earth at ecu, 
> meter 
> > > > should read battery voltage.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Put your multimeter to volts. Connect the red cable of 
meter 
> > to 
> > > > jump start post. Use black lead to check for throttle switch 
> > > input, 
> > > > meter should read battery voltage with throttle closed 
(switch 
> > > > operated) and no voltage with throttle open.
> > > > > 
> > > > > With the ECU plugged in, check the multiplug that goes to 
> the 
> > > > idle speed motor, the centre pin should have 12v on it (with 
> key 
> > > in 
> > > > ignition and tuned to position 2) continuously. The ecu 
> > > momentarily 
> > > > earths the outer pins to open and close the motor.
> > > > > 
> > > > > You can check for continuity using the resistance setting 
on 
> > the 
> > > > multimeter and check for wire continuity between the switched 
> > side 
> > > > of the coil to the ecu plug, (remove the ecu first). If there 
> is 
> > a 
> > > > suppressor, temporarily disconnect it in case this has gone 
> bad.
> > > > > 
> > > > > The white lead from the distributor to the ecu is from the 
> > > > negatively switched side of the coil. If this was short then 
> the 
> > > car 
> > > > would not run at all.
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > The Diode should be tested using diode function on the 
> > > > multimeter ideally not resistance.
> > > > > Reading should be between 500 and 800 with test leads one 
> way 
> > > > round on the diode, and no reading (ie infinite) the other 
way 
> > > round.
> > > > > The diode is there to stop feedback voltage going to this 
> > > > circuit, as the throttle microswitch operates a couple of 
> other 
> > > > circuits too.
> > > > > 
> > > > > I would say from your resistance tests that this diode 
would 
> > > > appear to be open circuit.
> > > > > Temporarily connect this wire to permanent earth for idle 
> > > > testing purposes only. Does the car idle now?? If it does 
then 
> > the 
> > > > diode will need replacing. Note which way round the diode is 
> > when 
> > > > you removed it and replace it with another the right way 
round.
> > > > > 
> > > > > I am presuming that you have check for wire continuity 
> between 
> > > > the idle speed motor multiplug and the idle speed ecu 
> multiplug.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Have you measured the thermister resistance?
> > > > > Do this by using your multimeter on resistance and connect 
> to 
> > > > the 2 pins on the idle speed ecu multiplug. If you get no 
> > reading 
> > > > (open circuit) then the connector to the thermistor connector 
> > plug 
> > > > may have fallen off or the thermistor itself has gone bad.
> > > > > If you get no resistance, you can make some short fly leads 
> to 
> > > > enable the multiplug to be connected to the ecu by 2 pins (on 
> > the 
> > > 4 
> > > > pin block) and the thermistor ecu inputs to a 10 kilo ohm 
> > resistor 
> > > > to simulate the thermistor. If the car now idles then this is 
> > the 
> > > > problem.
> > > > > 
> > > > > NIckT.
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > blackaddertoo wrote:
> > > > > Hi all
> > > > > 
> > > > > an update on my idle problems
> > > > > idle ecu and idle motor checked and working by martin at 
> DMUK.
> > > > > now removed motor, blocked pipes and adjusted screws...car 
> > idle 
> > > ok 
> > > > > at 1500 rpm.
> > > > > checked power to ecu ok at plug, checked switch ok at 
engine 
> > but 
> > > > > diode reads no resistance either polarity. (should it?) n 
> > moved 
> > > > for 
> > > > > further testing.
> > > > > checked ground connection at ecu - Ok.
> > > > > put Eecu and motor back in, shorted the diode/microswitch 
> > input 
> > > to 
> > > > > earth...car idle 30 second then dies. exactly the same 
> problem.
> > > > > removed diode short...idle 30 secs then dies.
> > > > > 
> > > > > so i am left to check the input from the distributor 
(should 
> > the 
> > > > car 
> > > > > idle if this is dead and hence the ecu does not know engine 
> > > > speed??)
> > > > > and if the leads from the ecu to motor are OK.
> > > > > 
> > > > > if i put a test light on the connector at engine end and 
> > switch 
> > > > > ignition, should there be a short positive signal on the 
one 
> > (to 
> > > > > either close the motor or open?)
> > > > > 
> > > > > then remove the microswith...do the same and the other lead 
> > > should 
> > > > > go positive.
> > > > > 
> > > > > that is correct is it not, middle lead to motor is ground 
> and 
> > > the 
> > > > > other run motor positive one way and positive the other to 
> > close 
> > > > the 
> > > > > air valve??.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Thanx for reading this!! and sorry to bore you. i am 
> > determined 
> > > to 
> > > > > resolve this (and enjoy it really!!)
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
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