In Pigeon Forge, I had the pleasure of spending time with Tom Grippenburg and his wife. Tom is the owner of a 17000 vin car, 17168. He is the original owner of the car. While having dinner the first night, Ken Montgomery (the head concours judge) happen to walk by. Being my normal controversial self, I engaged him in a discussion about the competition. For those of you who may not know, I am firmly against the idea of this competition. For these cars to be considered "the best of the best" based on the criteria of being as the factory built them, the judging manual better be accurate. You are fooling around with the value of someones property. Back to my story; When I specifically questioned Ken about the tail pipe issue on the 17000 cars, his response was that the 83 cars were "parts cars". I like Ken, but thought this was an insensitive thing to say. Tom Grippenburg's car is by far the best original DeLorean I have ever seen. It was leaked out that Tom's car might have been first place at the Cleveland show, but after Stephen decided to deduct the points for his 81 tail pipes, he did not place. James informed Tom that if he wanted to win in any future DMCH event, he would need to change his muffler. Is it a coincidence that the winning car happen to be one restored by DMCH? I believe this car later sold for a lot of money, so there is a more at stake in this competition than a trophy. After some discussion with Tom he thinks that the 17000 cars may have been built earlier than they were tagged. After the cars sat, they were re tagged to be sold as newer cars (1983). To back this up, it has been noted that the dashboard VIN tag is glued, and not riveted as it is in all of the earlier cars. A good way to verify this would be to include engine serial numbers and frame serial numbers in the Production Chronology, this way we would have a better idea in what order the cars rolled off the line. It is a good bet that we will see the 17000 cars were built earlier than their VIN plates say. That would explain why they have the older style muffler. It would also confirm that these cars were built in the factory and are not "parts cars". Based on seeing the engine assemblies with mufflers at KPAC, I assume the mufflers were attached to the engine assembly when it was installed in the car, so the engine serial number sequence may validate the muffler goes with the engine. I have discovered that this whole competition has succeeded in alienating many original owners from participating in events and competitions. I have been told that it is frustrating to be an original owner who followed the history of the car from the beginning to be told by a "new comer" that their car is a "parts car". Also, for some reason Tom thinks there were 112 cars in the 17000 series that were build for Canada. Maybe some of the documents stolen from Michael Pack contain this data? To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address: moderators@xxxxxxxxxxx For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see www.dmcnews.com To search the archives or view files, log in at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: dmcnews-unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/