RE: [DMCForum] Posting FROM Marc Levy about Moderation

[Kevin Abato <delorean@xxxxxxxxx>]

Open a Poll and let other members decide if he was incorrectly banned or
not.   Majority rules.
 
Side note:  I know Marc well.  He does like to stir the pot, and is a smart
guy...BUT...  He only stirs the pot when things are mentioned out of
incorrect facts.  He does his research and will admit when he is wrong
(based on HARD FACTS).  Marc was a critical role in setting up the by-laws
for the DMA club.  He based things off of fact and actual
information/process.  We challenged him on topics and when proven wrong on
something, he would agree with us.
 
BTW:  You posting a private e-mail exchange on the forum between you and him
was childish and wrong to do.  Ryan:  Perhaps you too should be moderated to
disallow improper things like that from being posted.  It was between you
and Marc...nobody else.
ALSO....  That note he sent to you had NOTHING to do with why you banned him
originally!  He was discussing the rules of how moderating should be done
fairly.  Its a perfectly legit topic! 
 
Kevin Abato
Vin# 16680

  _____  

From: DMCForum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:DMCForum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of Ryan Wright
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 1:53 AM
To: DMCForum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [DMCForum] Posting FROM Marc Levy about Moderation



Kevin, there is a reason Marc can no longer post here without
moderation, and the below is why. I wish you had not done this, as you
have now forced me into a situation I don't want to be in: That of
dragging the list through another heated, public debate.

Marc has done nothing but stir up trouble since the day we enacted the
new forum rules. We have tried to keep this argument off the list.
Unfortunately, due to your agreeing to post this message, it has now
become public. With other members posting responses and taking sides,
I have no choice but to open this topic up for full public discussion.
Apologies to those of you who aren't interested in this garbage, but
here we go anyway.

Anyone - except for Marc - who wants to chime in here, feel free. I am
specifically excluding Marc from this discussion at this time for the
simple reason that he has a knack for dragging people into heated
debates of never ending circular logic, and I am not willing to allow
him to do this right now. I would ask that the rest of you honor this
request by not forwarding his messages to the list. Marc has already
had his say through Kevin. Now, it is our turn.

I will address Marc's points one by one:

> > Most of us here joined an UN-MODERATED mailing list
> > for DeLorean owners and enthusiasts. Things were
> > going well until Walt made a critical mistake. He
> > entrusted Greg with the power of "ownership" in the
> > list. This mistake later resulted in Greg removing
> > Walt as a member, and action which was never
> > discussed
> > with Walt. Greg essentially "took over" the list on
> > his own. Walt wrote to me about this and said
> > "looks
> > like Greg has fucked me too".

Walt abandoned this forum. Period. Greg, being an owner, had no choice
but to take over operations.

> http://autos.
<http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/DMCForum/surveys?id=1335588>
groups.yahoo.com/group/DMCForum/surveys?id=1335588

Poll: Should discussions about politics be allowed on the DMC Forum?

Results:
44% No (13 votes)
27% Yes. (8 votes)
24% Don't care (7 votes)
3% Offer another suggestion (1 vote)

The members spoke. The decision was clear. Politics were to be banned
from this forum. Marc will have you believe we should count the "Don't
care" votes to be "Yes". This is, of course, ridiculous. "Don't care"
votes are neutral; they add no weight to either the "Yes" or the "No"
votes.

Marc has also argued that the vast majority of the membership didn't
vote. This is immaterial. The people who bother to vote make the
rules. If you don't bother to vote, you don't count.

> http://autos.
<http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/DMCForum/surveys?id=1335590>
groups.yahoo.com/group/DMCForum/surveys?id=1335590

Poll: Should discussions about religion be allowed on the DMC Forum?

Results:
46% No (13 votes)
28% Yes. (8 votes)
21% Don't care (6 votes)
3% Offer another suggestion (1 vote)

Again, the members voted to ban politics and religion. 46% in favor of the
ban.

> > I, Being a moderator of the list, was vocal against
> > any censorship or rules that limited free speech.
> >
> > As all of this was happening, Greg decided to make
> > Ryan a moderator. Seemed like a good choice, being
> > that they tended to be on the "same side" of most of
> > our discussions.
> >
> > So, the vote is called based on Ryan's
> > interpretation:
> > We will not allow politics and religion, and he
> > came
> > up with a set of "rules".

Do the rest of you agree that I have interpreted the vote wrong? I
believe the results speak clearly for themselves. Jon and Chuck, you
have both announced your agreement with Marc. Is there something you
would like to add to this discussion? To clarify, somehow, how I
misinterpreted the voting?

Clearly, the majority voted to ban politics and religion. Do you not
come to the same conclusion? If not, why?

> http://autos. <http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/DMCForum/message/30562>
groups.yahoo.com/group/DMCForum/message/30562
> >
> > Shortly after, I was banned for having a discussion
> > ABOUT the rules. There was no discussion of
> > religion
> > or politics, but as soon as I publicly disagreed
> > with
> > Ryan and Greg I was booted off.

Marc was "banned" by accident. Our intention was to remove his posting
privileges for 24 hours to allow him to cool down. The ensuing fight
that he started over the politics & religion ban threatened to consume
the list yet again. Previously, during heated discussions, we would
lose many members as people were not willing to put up with the amount
of bullshit pouring into their inboxes. Marc came out with all fists
flying and fought us, questioning the votes, questioning our motives,
etc.

I asked that the discussion be stopped. Marc ignored me. I gave him
several warnings, both on list and in private. Marc ignored me and
continued to argue and fight on list. We figured a 24 hour period of
non-posting would give him time to cool down. Unfortunately, due to my
inexperience managing the Yahoo Groups interface, Marc was banned. We
immediately emailed him and Greg spent over 6 hours (of actual time)
trying to convince him to rejoin the list but he insisted there was a
conspiracy; that I'd done it on purpose.

> > I reluctantly returned to the Forum, through much
> > persuasion of other members.

Through much persuasion from myself, Greg, and the other moderators as
well. I personally sent him several messages apologizing for the ban
and asking him to rejoin. He refused for quite some time.

> > Ryan is not happy with simply ruling the DMC Forum,
> > He
> > wants to rule all internet communications about
> > DeLoreans. So much so, that he HAS abused his
> > current
> > power to again censor the outspoken (in this case,
> > me). Without warning, he removed my ability to post
> > to the list.

You see, this is the problem with a person like Marc. He seems to have
a paranoid delusion that I am out to get him and, apparently, the rest
of the world. Rule all Internet communications? Because I said I'd
like to see a common, universal forum? I don't even want to run the
fucking thing. How many times do I have to say it? I don't want to
"own" a damn thing! A single forum with multiple discussion areas run
by a reasonably large committee of moderators would be to the benefit
of this community. That's all I've ever campaigned for.

I am only a moderator here by reluctance. Greg asked for my help and I
agreed. I don't get any joy out of this. How many of you really think
this is fun - wasting all of this time dealing with Marc? I should be
in bed right now, but no, here I am typing away. Do any of you want to
do this? Do you want to receive the dozen "A member has just
unsubscribed" messages every time a heated discussion takes place? Do
you want to reply to the members who are pissed off AT YOU for not
dealing with a certain somebody?

This isn't fun for me. I am helping out a friend. If any of you - Marc
excluded - want to claim I'm on a "power trip", then trade me places.
In a few months, when Marc, or someone else, decides to attack you and
label you a "power hungry dictator" for doing what has to be done,
we'll see how much fun you're really having.

> > My "rule braking" message can be found here:
> >
> http://autos. <http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/DMCForum/message/34107>
groups.yahoo.com/group/DMCForum/message/34107
> >
> > I am not sure where in that message there is
> > discussion of religion, or politics. But, does it
> > matter?

No, it doesn't. What matters is Marc attacked somebody - in this case,
me, but I would have responded the same if it had been any of you -
publicly, on the list. He threatened to bring the list into yet
another fight. I told him to stop and he refused. Therefore, with the
support of other moderators, Marc was placed on "moderated" status
meaning one of the 4 moderators would have to approve his messages
before they could be posted.

> > More importantly, why did Ryan not follow his OWN
> > RULES:
> >
> > Discussions that the moderators deem inappropriate
> > will be handled as
> > follows:
> >
> > 1. A public warning will be posted in the relevant
> > thread.

The warning was posted.

> > 2. Members who ignore the warning may be subject to
> > a
> > brief revocation of posting privileges.

Marc's posting privileges were not revoked, they were restricted.

> > 3. Continued violations will be handled on a case by
> > case basis.

We handled this on a case by case basis.

> > 4. In the interest of full disclosure, moderator
> > actions will be posted to the list.

Our actions were not final. Marc's posting was not disabled, only his
ability to continue this private fight on list. We have spent the past
several days debating what action to take against Marc. We just
decided his fate this afternoon and were drafting a message to send to
the list regarding our decision this evening.

Coming to a consensus between 4 people on what to do with a person
like Marc takes time, especially when we're communicating via email.

> > No "public warning" was posted on this matter.

Right here: http://autos.
<http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/DMCForum/message/34106>
groups.yahoo.com/group/DMCForum/message/34106

I said, and I quote, "Consider this topic closed." That was Marc's warning.

> > Since there was no warning, there was none to
> > ignore,
> > therefore this action is against established policy.

Marc is not a child. He knows damn well that "Consider this topic
closed" means "Don't post any more messages or there may be
repercussions." We don't have to spell everything out for a grown man.

> > the list, "In the interest of full disclosure". Why
> > should he? He is simply using his power to silence
> > me.

What has happened to Marc has been agreed upon by 4 people, including
myself. Why does Marc attack only me? Silence him? You're damn right.
When he has nothing better to do than take personal fights and make
them public?

> > And if at any point in the future someone considers
> > moving to any forum run by Ryan, they know who they
> > are dealing with.

I am going to make public every private message sent between Marc and
I these past few days so that you will all know exactly who you are
dealing with. These messages will follow this posting.

Enjoy the discussion. If the rest of the membership becomes pissed off
at having to read this bullshit and unsubscribes, you know who you can
thank.

-Ryan


 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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