Would someone please share with me Michael Griese and any other DML moderator's contact info (email) so I may talk to them off of the DML? Thanks! JQ -------------------------------------------------- From: "content22207" <brobertson@xxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 6:59 PM To: <dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: Re: [DML] Rob Grady's Personal Lower Suspension > I haven't hijacked a damn thing. Go back and look at the history. > > In late October I combined Ed's brackets and Byrnes LCA's, and posted a > message to that effect. I mistakenly thought then that I was the first > owner to do so, but readily concede now that Luke Sandel did the same > thing more than a year ago. > > Several owners objected to my upgrade, under grounds that the original > suspension is fine. I disagreed, and the discussion did drift towards > whether Lotus gave DMC its best or not, but even that died out. > > In fact there were no posts on the subject for more than a week. > > Then an owner pointed me to pics of Rob Grady's front suspension, which is > much closer to a lower wishbone than even mine. I reposted those pics for > group benefit (that was the first time I ever saw Rob's suspension, and I > found it quite interesting). Then all Hell broke loose. David and Kayo > have accused me of insurance fraud. They have repeatedly brought up my > choice of fuel delivery, for what purpose I do not know. They have called > me "backyard" and "shade tree" and "Rube Goldberg" (for merely bolting on > ready made products that have been on the market for years?). > > And somehow I am the bad person here? > > KMA. I am a very satisfied DMC and Heninger & Associates customer. I think > the quality of their products, especially when used together, is worthy of > endorsement. I am not trying to defraud anyone. I am not trying to > backyard engineer anything beyond a couple of extra washers. I have not > said a single word about my choice of fuel delivery. Yet I am supposed to > be the bad guy. Truly bizarre. > > Bill Robertson > #5939 > > --- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Cameron, Peter" <cameron@...> wrote: >> >> I think many of us are getting your drift, Kayo. Bill has hijacked the >> forum, we would like it back. Interesting play of personalities, but >> after a while it gets to be the same dynamic over and over again, ends up >> somewhere in the realm between frustration and irritation. >> >> ________________________________ >> >> From: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of K.L. (KAYO) Ong >> Sent: Wed 11/9/2011 4:58 PM >> To: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >> Subject: Re: [DML] Rob Grady's Personal Lower Suspension >> >> >> >> "Why?" >> >> First, because I see a similar pattern of the" front end" thread >> being exploited as the "carburetor" thread in the past AND the people >> JUST FADED away from the continuation of the fruitless discussions... >> Just as well as another delicate subject of the founder and creator >> of the DMC not too long ago.... (Although you are right on many points.) >> >> Second, you must understand that I am not questioning your talents or >> your greatness in the ability to conjure up a more efficient device >> or working systems for any part or system for the DeLorean. (I >> thought you would like to hear that "positive" pat on the back.) >> >> Thirdly, and you STILL haven't address the MAIN issue of insurance >> with either topics!!! That is MY ONLY question and the >> "discussion"... INSURANCE COVERAGE!!! The question of legal >> responsibility in case there is a liability problem when the "said" >> part or set up fails!!! You must understand, there are many young or >> naive people reading these posts about your conversions and they need >> to be told of THEIR responsibilities in case they follow your ways in >> doing these conversions.... (I have gotten calls from young owners >> asking for an opinion of your postings.) >> >> Fourthly, and AGAIN, you use references to the various businesses and >> the people you had mentioned to justified or to compare your front >> end design. The difference is that they are (and should) be backed >> up by an insurance policy? That MAKES them legal and liable when >> they are doing business. Which MEANS, if their parts, components and >> services fails or faults, THERE IS the insurance policy that will >> back them. A "Back yard" mechanics and "Shade Tree" mechanics HAVE >> NO insurance to back them, UNLESS they do "hold a policy" as to cover >> their work and the components that are installed. And in the >> industries, these part and set ups that are not recognized are called >> "Rube Goldberg" and etc.... >> >> Lastly, will you back up someone who takes on your design and there >> is a mishap in your design/engineering? Just remember, when there is >> a failure which causes "Bodily Harm" (including death) and there IS >> NO insurance or approval, WHO IS GOING TO BE YOUR DADDY? As I have >> said, your front end (and or carburetor) are not the question, just >> the subject of liability that is associate to them. >> >> I am sure those reading these posts will understand my direction of >> my thread... >> >> Kayo Ong >> #5508 >> Lic 9D NY >> >> >> >> On Nov 9, 2011, at 9:30 AM, content22207 wrote: >> >> > Why are you even mentioning carburetion? This discussion is about >> > front end lower suspension. Please keep the discussion on topic. >> > >> > My front end is upgraded with a brackets that appear to be DMCH >> > approved, and Byrnes LCA's. You can complain about Byrne's LCA's if >> > you want, but note that they are not worlds removed from Bryan's >> > LCA's that Houston used to sell, and which Houston is still using >> > for its own purposes. >> > >> > Bill Robertson >> > #5939 >> > >> > --- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "K.L. (KAYO) Ong" <klo@> wrote: >> > > >> > > Bill: >> > > >> > > You say: "DMCH markets itself as the closet thing to Dummury" and >> > you >> > > added that "hardly 'backyard'." I am not sure of your >> > > implication??? The DMHC operating as a business should have business >> > > insurance. The business insurance should have an "umbrella coverage" >> > > as to back up the products they sell, why we as customer would not >> > > worry about the products brought. >> > > >> > > As I have said, people can conjured up and make nice workable >> > > modifications.... And these mods may work well... But, when the >> > > modified parts fails, what will be the outlook and the position that >> > > the underwriting insurance company take? >> > > >> > > And as far as the other "stateside DMC franchise" vendors selling >> > > another person or company's manufactured products, it only means >> > that >> > > they sell the parts. And again, hopefully for them that they have >> > > business insurance or product liability insurance to cover >> > themselves >> > > as well. >> > > >> > > You brought up Rob's Green DeLorean, I am sure Rob has his business >> > > insurance to cover his Green DeLoreans front end. I do believe that >> > > when he puts his "NYS Dealer" plates on it, there is an umbrella >> > > coverage? Also, if Rob does something to his Green DeLorean and for >> > > what he ALSO do for his customer, he ALWAYS has "liability" with the >> > > products or service on his mind... Do ask me and I will personal >> > tell >> > > you on several issues!!! >> > > >> > > As for Ed Uding, he should have insurance for the products he sells >> > > as well and all of the people that are involved in selling his >> > > products? (Foolish if he and they don't.) >> > > >> > > Many DMLers have seen your front-end creation and you maybe right on >> > > your findings and many will side with you to the point that owners >> > > will consider your findings as gospel and they will installed your >> > > mods into their DeLoreans. Now suppose, let's say some years or a >> > > decade goes by and something really drastic happens to a converted >> > > DeLorean where "bodily harm" is involved. Do you think the insurance >> > > of the DeLorean involved will be covered when they discovered the >> > > undocumented conversion is the caused of the problem? I believe the >> > > insurance company will not cover the damages of property and the >> > > people involved, because it was not disclosed to them (lied or >> > > deceptive)... >> > > >> > > I am curious, if your insurance policy covers your modify DeLorean? >> > > Do you or have you the need to inform them that your DeLorean front >> > > end is no longer original and modified? >> > > >> > > Bill, I really don't know you or your lifestyle. You are articulate >> > > and do come off very well in depth in what you believe and what you >> > > do with your DeLorean and you do have an adequate answer for all >> > when >> > > questioned. I can respect that, but in these cases your carburetor >> > > mod and the front-end mod are two major differences when something >> > > should go wrong. You need to tell people that failure is an option >> > > as well... As for your car, the worst that can happen with your >> > > carburetor modification is fire to your DeLorean and will stop >> > > running and on the worst, you may not get paid by the insurance. >> > > With the front end and whilst in motion, it can be disastrous for >> > > people in the DeLorean and the innocent people around the DeLorean >> > > should failure arises. But on the other hand, your modified front >> > > end can last forever... Who knows... Insurance is the my only issue >> > > on my long winding thread with the mods/conversions.... Nothing >> > more, >> > > nothing less. Remember, a suer can change your world if there is >> > > "no" or "inadequate" insurance coverage... >> > > >> > > BTW, FWIW, two years ago I had witness on the I-495 Eastbound of the >> > > Long Island Expressway's shoulder, there was a brand new bright >> > > Yellow Ferrari with the right side of front end down with the bumper >> > > sitting on wheel that was lying flat on the road. It seems to me the >> > > front end had collapsed. The Ferrari had not struck any other car on >> > > the road. Luck for him it was a just an embracement for there was a >> > > very long tattletale skid mark from the road right into the dirt >> > > shoulder. When all of these threads of the front-end mods came on >> > > the DML, all that came to my mind was the Bright Yellow Ferrari on >> > > the side of the road.... >> > > >> > > Kayo Ong >> > > #5508 >> > > Lic. 9D NY >> > > >> > > >> > > On Nov 8, 2011, at 7:42 PM, content22207 wrote: >> > > >> > > > DMCH markets itself as the closest thing to Dunmurry -- hardly >> > > > "backyard." Ed Uding's brackets are made by one DMC franchise, and >> > > > sold stateside by another DMC franchise, so I assume they have >> > > > Houston's blessing. >> > > > >> > > > Bill Robertson >> > > > #5939 >> > > > >> > > > --- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "K.L. (KAYO) Ong" <klo@> wrote: >> > > > > >> > > > > Mike: >> > > > > >> > > > > Thank you for your reply. I had expected an answer of such. >> > > > > >> > > > > It is great for everyone to talk about the enhanced >> > performance and >> > > > > the achievements to produce the components, but no one is >> > addressing >> > > > > the liability area when the modified component fails.... >> > Especially >> > > > > the front end components of this subject. >> > > > > >> > > > > When one thinks about modifying their cars and they should check >> > > > with >> > > > > their insurance provider to see if they will cover the >> > > > > modifications. Without informing the insurance company to the >> > > > > installed modifications, most likely the insurance companies >> > will >> > > > > quickly look at it as a loophole and to avoid offering any legal >> > > > > support and payment when the disaster occurs. Although to get >> > > > > coverage is not impossible, I was told that some insurance >> > companies >> > > > > would cover ANYTHING if the "premiums" were in THEIR favor, >> > so one >> > > > > will pay a pricey premium for the coverage. >> > > > > >> > > > > The differences with components from established companies >> > and home >> > > > > brew parts are the companies who are advertising and selling >> > their >> > > > > modify components should have some type of insurance? For if >> > they >> > > > > are operating as a company, they should have product liability >> > > > > insurance as to cover their products? So, the purchaser who have >> > > > > these components correctly installed can hold the company >> > > > responsible >> > > > > for law suit resulting from failures that can incur? >> > > > > >> > > > > The independent person as a "back yard mechanic" or "shade tree >> > > > > mechanic" operating on their own with their "home brewed parts," >> > > > > usually has no product liability or a business insurance >> > coverage >> > > > and >> > > > > that can be a legal liability problem for the owner of the >> > vehicle >> > > > > involved. >> > > > > >> > > > > Modifications can be a great thing for the car owner with the >> > > > > installed mod components and it can become costly and life >> > changing >> > > > > when they fail without the insurance coverage.... And the way >> > people >> > > > > are instigated to sue heavily by their lawyer -- They will be >> > suing >> > > > > for everything (for they get at least one third of the >> > awardment). >> > > > > In today's climate with lawsuits, a basic coverage is not >> > enough... >> > > > > If the insurance company don't cover the suit completely, >> > then one >> > > > > can be held responsible for the balance and be in bankruptcy? >> > Not a >> > > > > good thing.... >> > > > > >> > > > > Kayo Ong >> > > > > #5508 >> > > > > Lic 9D NY >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > On Nov 8, 2011, at 4:19 PM, Michael Griese wrote: >> > > > > >> > > > > > Nobody here can answer that question accurately. You would >> > need to >> > > > > > take it up >> > > > > > with your insurance company in your state. As an example, >> > whatever >> > > > > > State Farm >> > > > > > covers in New York may not be the same as what State Farm >> > > > covers in >> > > > > > Minnesota or >> > > > > > what Geico would cover in New York. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > -- >> > > > > > Mike >> > > > > > >> > > > > > ________________________________ >> > > > > > From: K.L. (KAYO) Ong <klo@> >> > > > > > To: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >> > > > > > Sent: Tue, November 8, 2011 2:56:29 PM >> > > > > > Subject: Re: [DML] Rob Grady's Personal Lower Suspension >> > > > > > >> > > > > > I had posted a question a while back on this subject and it >> > was >> > > > left >> > > > > > unanswered. These modifications by everyone are a major >> > structural >> > > > > > change for the front end. I believed all these modifications >> > > > are not >> > > > > > the original DMC engineering from decades ago that are on >> > filed as >> > > > > > DMC-12. Although the modifications ARE improvements. The >> > > > > > questions are: What happens and if there is a failure and and >> > > > there >> > > > > > are "property" and or "bodily harm" caused by failure? Will >> > the >> > > > > > insurance company STILL cover the mishap? Or will they wash >> > their >> > > > > > hands of the matter? I am curious and not cleared in this >> > area. >> > > > Law >> > > > > > suits can be a financial disaster, if not life changing if >> > > > there is >> > > > > > no coverage for the modifications. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Kayo Ong >> > > > > > #5508 >> > > > > > Lic 9D NY >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address: >> moderators@... >> >> For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see >> www.dmcnews.com >> >> To search the archives or view files, log in at >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnewsYahoo! 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