Re: [DML] Rob Grady's Personal Lower Suspension

["content22207" <brobertson@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]

I haven't hijacked a damn thing. Go back and look at the history.

In late October I combined Ed's brackets and Byrnes LCA's, and posted a message to that effect. I mistakenly thought then that I was the first owner to do so, but readily concede now that Luke Sandel did the same thing more than a year ago.

Several owners objected to my upgrade, under grounds that the original suspension is fine. I disagreed, and the discussion did drift towards whether Lotus gave DMC its best or not, but even that died out. 

In fact there were no posts on the subject for more than a week.

Then an owner pointed me to pics of Rob Grady's front suspension, which is much closer to a lower wishbone than even mine. I reposted those pics for group benefit (that was the first time I ever saw Rob's suspension, and I found it quite interesting). Then all Hell broke loose. David and Kayo have accused me of insurance fraud. They have repeatedly brought up my choice of fuel delivery, for what purpose I do not know. They have called me "backyard" and "shade tree" and "Rube Goldberg" (for merely bolting on ready made products that have been on the market for years?). 

And somehow I am the bad person here?

KMA. I am a very satisfied DMC and Heninger & Associates customer. I think the quality of their products, especially when used together, is worthy of endorsement. I am not trying to defraud anyone. I am not trying to backyard engineer anything beyond a couple of extra washers. I have not said a single word about my choice of fuel delivery. Yet I am supposed to be the bad guy. Truly bizarre.

Bill Robertson
#5939

--- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Cameron, Peter" <cameron@...> wrote:
>
> I think many of us are getting your drift, Kayo. Bill has hijacked the forum, we would like it back. Interesting play of personalities, but after a while it gets to be the same dynamic over and over again, ends up somewhere in the realm between frustration and irritation. 
> 
> ________________________________
> 
> From: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of K.L. (KAYO) Ong
> Sent: Wed 11/9/2011 4:58 PM
> To: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [DML] Rob Grady's Personal Lower Suspension
> 
> 
> 
> "Why?"
> 
> First, because I see a similar pattern of the" front end" thread 
> being exploited as the "carburetor" thread in the past AND the people 
> JUST FADED away from the continuation of the fruitless discussions... 
> Just as well as another delicate subject of the founder and creator 
> of the DMC not too long ago.... (Although you are right on many points.)
> 
> Second, you must understand that I am not questioning your talents or 
> your greatness in the ability to conjure up a more efficient device 
> or working systems for any part or system for the DeLorean.  (I 
> thought you would like to hear that "positive" pat on the back.)
> 
> Thirdly, and you STILL haven't address the MAIN issue of insurance 
> with either topics!!!  That is MY ONLY question and the 
> "discussion"... INSURANCE COVERAGE!!!  The question of legal 
> responsibility in case there is a liability problem when the "said" 
> part or set up fails!!!  You must understand, there are many young or 
> naive people reading these posts about your conversions and they need 
> to be told of THEIR responsibilities in case they follow your ways in 
> doing these conversions.... (I have gotten calls from young owners 
> asking for an opinion of your postings.)
> 
> Fourthly, and AGAIN, you use references to the various businesses and 
> the people you had mentioned to justified or to compare your front 
> end design.  The difference is that they are (and should) be backed 
> up by an insurance policy?  That MAKES them legal and liable when 
> they are doing business.  Which MEANS, if their parts, components and 
> services fails or faults, THERE IS the insurance policy that will 
> back them.   A "Back yard" mechanics and "Shade Tree" mechanics HAVE 
> NO insurance to back them, UNLESS they do "hold a policy" as to cover 
> their work and the components that are installed.  And in the 
> industries, these part and set ups that are not recognized are called 
> "Rube Goldberg" and etc....
> 
> Lastly, will you back up someone who takes on your design and there 
> is a mishap in your design/engineering?  Just remember, when there is 
> a failure which causes "Bodily Harm" (including death) and there IS 
> NO insurance or approval, WHO IS GOING TO BE YOUR DADDY?  As I have 
> said, your front end (and or carburetor) are not the question, just 
> the subject of liability that is associate to them.
> 
> I am sure those reading these posts will understand my direction of 
> my thread...
> 
> Kayo Ong
> #5508
> Lic 9D NY
> 
> 
> 
> On Nov 9, 2011, at 9:30 AM, content22207 wrote:
> 
> > Why are you even mentioning carburetion? This discussion is about 
> > front end lower suspension. Please keep the discussion on topic.
> >
> > My front end is upgraded with a brackets that appear to be DMCH 
> > approved, and Byrnes LCA's. You can complain about Byrne's LCA's if 
> > you want, but note that they are not worlds removed from Bryan's 
> > LCA's that Houston used to sell, and which Houston is still using 
> > for its own purposes.
> >
> > Bill Robertson
> > #5939
> >
> > --- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "K.L. (KAYO) Ong" <klo@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Bill:
> > >
> > > You say: "DMCH markets itself as the closet thing to Dummury" and 
> > you
> > > added that "hardly 'backyard'." I am not sure of your
> > > implication??? The DMHC operating as a business should have business
> > > insurance. The business insurance should have an "umbrella coverage"
> > > as to back up the products they sell, why we as customer would not
> > > worry about the products brought.
> > >
> > > As I have said, people can conjured up and make nice workable
> > > modifications.... And these mods may work well... But, when the
> > > modified parts fails, what will be the outlook and the position that
> > > the underwriting insurance company take?
> > >
> > > And as far as the other "stateside DMC franchise" vendors selling
> > > another person or company's manufactured products, it only means 
> > that
> > > they sell the parts. And again, hopefully for them that they have
> > > business insurance or product liability insurance to cover 
> > themselves
> > > as well.
> > >
> > > You brought up Rob's Green DeLorean, I am sure Rob has his business
> > > insurance to cover his Green DeLoreans front end. I do believe that
> > > when he puts his "NYS Dealer" plates on it, there is an umbrella
> > > coverage? Also, if Rob does something to his Green DeLorean and for
> > > what he ALSO do for his customer, he ALWAYS has "liability" with the
> > > products or service on his mind... Do ask me and I will personal 
> > tell
> > > you on several issues!!!
> > >
> > > As for Ed Uding, he should have insurance for the products he sells
> > > as well and all of the people that are involved in selling his
> > > products? (Foolish if he and they don't.)
> > >
> > > Many DMLers have seen your front-end creation and you maybe right on
> > > your findings and many will side with you to the point that owners
> > > will consider your findings as gospel and they will installed your
> > > mods into their DeLoreans. Now suppose, let's say some years or a
> > > decade goes by and something really drastic happens to a converted
> > > DeLorean where "bodily harm" is involved. Do you think the insurance
> > > of the DeLorean involved will be covered when they discovered the
> > > undocumented conversion is the caused of the problem? I believe the
> > > insurance company will not cover the damages of property and the
> > > people involved, because it was not disclosed to them (lied or
> > > deceptive)...
> > >
> > > I am curious, if your insurance policy covers your modify DeLorean?
> > > Do you or have you the need to inform them that your DeLorean front
> > > end is no longer original and modified?
> > >
> > > Bill, I really don't know you or your lifestyle. You are articulate
> > > and do come off very well in depth in what you believe and what you
> > > do with your DeLorean and you do have an adequate answer for all 
> > when
> > > questioned. I can respect that, but in these cases your carburetor
> > > mod and the front-end mod are two major differences when something
> > > should go wrong. You need to tell people that failure is an option
> > > as well... As for your car, the worst that can happen with your
> > > carburetor modification is fire to your DeLorean and will stop
> > > running and on the worst, you may not get paid by the insurance.
> > > With the front end and whilst in motion, it can be disastrous for
> > > people in the DeLorean and the innocent people around the DeLorean
> > > should failure arises. But on the other hand, your modified front
> > > end can last forever... Who knows... Insurance is the my only issue
> > > on my long winding thread with the mods/conversions.... Nothing 
> > more,
> > > nothing less. Remember, a suer can change your world if there is
> > > "no" or "inadequate" insurance coverage...
> > >
> > > BTW, FWIW, two years ago I had witness on the I-495 Eastbound of the
> > > Long Island Expressway's shoulder, there was a brand new bright
> > > Yellow Ferrari with the right side of front end down with the bumper
> > > sitting on wheel that was lying flat on the road. It seems to me the
> > > front end had collapsed. The Ferrari had not struck any other car on
> > > the road. Luck for him it was a just an embracement for there was a
> > > very long tattletale skid mark from the road right into the dirt
> > > shoulder. When all of these threads of the front-end mods came on
> > > the DML, all that came to my mind was the Bright Yellow Ferrari on
> > > the side of the road....
> > >
> > > Kayo Ong
> > > #5508
> > > Lic. 9D NY
> > >
> > >
> > > On Nov 8, 2011, at 7:42 PM, content22207 wrote:
> > >
> > > > DMCH markets itself as the closest thing to Dunmurry -- hardly
> > > > "backyard." Ed Uding's brackets are made by one DMC franchise, and
> > > > sold stateside by another DMC franchise, so I assume they have
> > > > Houston's blessing.
> > > >
> > > > Bill Robertson
> > > > #5939
> > > >
> > > > --- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "K.L. (KAYO) Ong" <klo@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike:
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you for your reply. I had expected an answer of such.
> > > > >
> > > > > It is great for everyone to talk about the enhanced 
> > performance and
> > > > > the achievements to produce the components, but no one is 
> > addressing
> > > > > the liability area when the modified component fails.... 
> > Especially
> > > > > the front end components of this subject.
> > > > >
> > > > > When one thinks about modifying their cars and they should check
> > > > with
> > > > > their insurance provider to see if they will cover the
> > > > > modifications. Without informing the insurance company to the
> > > > > installed modifications, most likely the insurance companies 
> > will
> > > > > quickly look at it as a loophole and to avoid offering any legal
> > > > > support and payment when the disaster occurs. Although to get
> > > > > coverage is not impossible, I was told that some insurance 
> > companies
> > > > > would cover ANYTHING if the "premiums" were in THEIR favor, 
> > so one
> > > > > will pay a pricey premium for the coverage.
> > > > >
> > > > > The differences with components from established companies 
> > and home
> > > > > brew parts are the companies who are advertising and selling 
> > their
> > > > > modify components should have some type of insurance? For if 
> > they
> > > > > are operating as a company, they should have product liability
> > > > > insurance as to cover their products? So, the purchaser who have
> > > > > these components correctly installed can hold the company
> > > > responsible
> > > > > for law suit resulting from failures that can incur?
> > > > >
> > > > > The independent person as a "back yard mechanic" or "shade tree
> > > > > mechanic" operating on their own with their "home brewed parts,"
> > > > > usually has no product liability or a business insurance 
> > coverage
> > > > and
> > > > > that can be a legal liability problem for the owner of the 
> > vehicle
> > > > > involved.
> > > > >
> > > > > Modifications can be a great thing for the car owner with the
> > > > > installed mod components and it can become costly and life 
> > changing
> > > > > when they fail without the insurance coverage.... And the way 
> > people
> > > > > are instigated to sue heavily by their lawyer -- They will be 
> > suing
> > > > > for everything (for they get at least one third of the 
> > awardment).
> > > > > In today's climate with lawsuits, a basic coverage is not 
> > enough...
> > > > > If the insurance company don't cover the suit completely, 
> > then one
> > > > > can be held responsible for the balance and be in bankruptcy? 
> > Not a
> > > > > good thing....
> > > > >
> > > > > Kayo Ong
> > > > > #5508
> > > > > Lic 9D NY
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Nov 8, 2011, at 4:19 PM, Michael Griese wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Nobody here can answer that question accurately. You would 
> > need to
> > > > > > take it up
> > > > > > with your insurance company in your state. As an example, 
> > whatever
> > > > > > State Farm
> > > > > > covers in New York may not be the same as what State Farm
> > > > covers in
> > > > > > Minnesota or
> > > > > > what Geico would cover in New York.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Mike
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > From: K.L. (KAYO) Ong <klo@>
> > > > > > To: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > > Sent: Tue, November 8, 2011 2:56:29 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [DML] Rob Grady's Personal Lower Suspension
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I had posted a question a while back on this subject and it 
> > was
> > > > left
> > > > > > unanswered. These modifications by everyone are a major 
> > structural
> > > > > > change for the front end. I believed all these modifications
> > > > are not
> > > > > > the original DMC engineering from decades ago that are on 
> > filed as
> > > > > > DMC-12. Although the modifications ARE improvements. The
> > > > > > questions are: What happens and if there is a failure and and
> > > > there
> > > > > > are "property" and or "bodily harm" caused by failure? Will 
> > the
> > > > > > insurance company STILL cover the mishap? Or will they wash 
> > their
> > > > > > hands of the matter? I am curious and not cleared in this 
> > area.
> > > > Law
> > > > > > suits can be a financial disaster, if not life changing if
> > > > there is
> > > > > > no coverage for the modifications.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Kayo Ong
> > > > > > #5508
> > > > > > Lic 9D NY
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
> moderators@...
> 
> For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see www.dmcnews.com
> 
> To search the archives or view files, log in at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnewsYahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>




------------------------------------

To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
moderators@xxxxxxxxxxx

For more info on the list, tech articles, cars for sale see www.dmcnews.com

To search the archives or view files, log in at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnewsYahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews/

<*> Your email settings:
    Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews/join
    (Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
    dmcnews-digest@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
    dmcnews-fullfeatured@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    dmcnews-unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/