Before posting messages or replies, see the posting policy rules at:
www.dmcnews.com/Admin/rules.html
To address comments privately to the moderating team, please address:
moderator@xxxxxxxxxxx
------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are 18 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. RE: RE: Re: GM Engine/modifying your Delorean
From: "Mike Griese" <mike.griese@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
2. Re: RE: Re: GM Engine/modifying your Delorean
From: mroboto@xxxxxxx
3. Re: Re: GM Engine
From: "Richard Cutter" <dmc_power@xxxxxxxxxxx>
4. engine swap measurements
From: "Walter" <Whalt@xxxxxxx>
5. Re: Winner of the Gold DeLorean
From: theshovel1224@xxxxxxxxx
6. DeLoreans DO talk to thier owners.
From: "Jim Reeve" <ultra@xxxxxxx>
7. WANTED : Grey door trim
From: "ian" <ian@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
8. Re: Packard Tranny
From: Jack The Stripper <motti@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
9. Re: spare tires & pizza
From: deloreanernst@xxxxxxx
10. Door Lock Module
From: dherv10@xxxxxxx
11. "escape from LA"
From: delorean502@xxxxxxxxxx
12. Re: "escape from LA"
From: Horseman of PA <the_horseman_pa@xxxxxxxxx>
13. Update: West Coast Show - September 20-23
From: "Montgomery, Ken" <kenm@xxxxxxxx>
14. about ac vacuum system
From: sk1pper@xxxxxxxxxxx
15. Clutch is working again!
From: "Jim Reeve"<ultra@xxxxxxx>
16. rattle in the steering column
From: Soma576@xxxxxxx
17. strange idle
From: Delorean17@xxxxxxx
18. Re: strange idle
From: jtrealty@xxxxxxxxxxx
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 22:54:10 -0500
From: "Mike Griese" <mike.griese@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: RE: RE: Re: GM Engine/modifying your Delorean
Claude - the rules are a little bit fuzzy in this area,
but a good rule of thumb is that the certification
follows the year of manufacture of the engine or
of the rest of the car, whichever is NEWER. What
that means is that if I wanted to put a 1999 Ford 4.6L
modular engine in my 1971 Mustang, the car would have
to meet 1999 emission standards. If I wanted to take
the 250cid I6 in my 1971 Mustang and put it into
a 1999 Mustang, the combination would still have to
meet 1999 standards. This includes any OBDII
standards. There are some onsiderations made for
cars that are obviously not for everyday use such
as race cars and some street rods.
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: CBL302@xxxxxxx [mailto:CBL302@xxxxxxx]
Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 6:25 PM
To: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [DML] RE: Re: GM Engine/modifying your Delorean
12
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 09:22:15 -0400
From: "Marc A. Levy" <malevy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: RE: Re: GM Engine/modifying your Delorean
>On the other hand, if this was a $6000 conversion Richard would
>quickly
>have a few hundred DeLoreans outside his shop waiting for Notrhstar
>engines.. :)
I may be wrong on this (because of the age of our Deloreans) would
not the "Feds" bust them for Emissions tampering/modifying from
stock,
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 2
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 05:15:49 EDT
From: mroboto@xxxxxxx
Subject: Re: RE: Re: GM Engine/modifying your Delorean
Re: EPA coming to get you.
If the car happens to be 20 years old, it is exempt. However, there may be
local laws that are unique to your state that prevents you from being a smog
hog.
What about all of those cars that never had seat belts form the factory
40's/50's etc. those guys are exempt from most state's seat belt laws too.
Age has it's privileges.
Daniel 15779
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 3
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 04:40:05 +0000
From: "Richard Cutter" <dmc_power@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Re: GM Engine
[MODERATOR NOTE - Richard will finish this discussion - as a long-time conversion operator he does know the rules. As he mentions, there are many differing state laws on this, ranging from what you can do to who's inspecting, so discussion without the context of where you live is not very fruitful. End of thread for now unless it pertains to DMC rather than generic engine swap questions.]
Greetings Walt....
I will answer your question as well as some things brought up in other
replies..
Cadillac introduced the Northstar in the early 90's and with some internal
and few external modifications it is still here... Available with 300 hp,
275 hp, and 250 hp ( Old's Aurora engine )
All engine control electronics and emission controls are reconnected,
although I have not tried it the limp home waterless mode should work as
designed....
As per modifying a "D" for a front engine, I guess it would be possible but
don't ask me to do it....
As per cost.... New car pull-outs ( less than 5 miles ) cost over $ 5,000
for engine, accys, electronics...( remember this is a high tech engine out
of a $45,000+ car ) Now add to that transmission modifications, custom bell
housing, mounting hardware ( all custom ), plumbing, A/C Lines, mounts,
etc... etc... Now labor... lots of it...
Recovery of development costs, it all adds up fast...
Performance costs money, no way around it...
Pound per horse-power it is better than the Corvette...
As per emission - If the engine is of equal or lower emission and of the
same year or newer, and all emission controls are connected and present the
Feds are happy. Some states do not allow an engine of more than stock
number of cylinders - V6 to a V8 - although I know of only one state that
has this law...
I have to admit the "D" is a cruiser not a dragster, but it is nice to have
the power when needed to pass on a mountain upgrade, or when ever needed...
All "D"'s are fun great cars and one of the best values out there...
Rich Cutter
>From: "Walter" <Whalt@xxxxxxx>
>Richard,
>
>I would love to hear more about your Cadillac Northstar engine conversion.
>Can you say what models & years Cadillac have these engines? Were you able
>to hook up all the associated electronics to allow the engine to run on
>'limp home' mode with no radiator coolant?
>
>I was talking to a local Camero affectionado who thinks that his LS-1 block
>is the same size as the Northstar V8. Is this so? He says that the block
>is available in aluminum. If it would fit, it would make a lot more sense
>to use since more aftermarket parts are available. I just don't see old
>men
>at car shows tricking out their Caddies like I do with kids & their Chevys.
>
>I would like to consider installing a front wheel drive engine &
>transmission in place of the DeLorean stuff.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 4
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 23:16:07 -0400
From: "Walter" <Whalt@xxxxxxx>
Subject: engine swap measurements
At the request of our list member Tom in Poland, I have taken most of the
dimensions relevant to selecting a different engine to fit the DeLorean.
Especially considering that he smuggled some very hard to get metric
measuring tapes to the States for me, it is most fitting that I use them for
the job. :) It also helps having a chassis apart to take these measurements
without the engine in the way. I welcome any comments from anyone who has
an opinion on what will fit and what won't.
Walt Tampa, FL
Height:
Measuring from center of crank (input shaft of transmission):
-- 51.6 cm up to lowest point of engine cover at front fire wall (taken from
top of ignition resistor bracket).
-- 45.5 cm up to lowest point of engine cover at rear fire wall (taken from
bottom of rubber tips at rear corners).
-- 22.9 cm down to bottom of oil pan
-- 15.0 cm down to top of frame cross member (which holds motor mounts).
-- 23.0 cm down to bottom of frame cross member (cross member is 8.0 cm
thick)
-- 20.4 cm up to highest point on frame which is visible from engine
compartment.
Measuring from highest point on frame which is visible from engine
compartment:
-- 25.1 cm to lowest point on engine cover (which is the rubber tips at rear
corners)
Width side to side:
-- 79.9 cm is width of frame at transmission/engine interface (narrowest
point)
-- 91.7 cm is width of frame at rear fire wall (widest point).
Note: engine compartment is approximately 8 cm wider on each side than
frame. So as long as the engine barely clears the frame, you will have an
additional 8 cm on each side to access sides of engine.
Length front to rear:
Measuring from cross-brace mounting holes (also lines up with rear shock
mounting on frame):
-- 16.1 cm forward to front fire wall
-- 56.5 cm back to rear fire wall
-- 1.3 cm forward to transmission/engine interface
Measuring from transmission/engine interface:
-- 60.4 cm back to rear inside of frame
Note: This includes the hollow space between the rear fire wall and the
frame. In order to use this space for the engine compartment, part of the
rear fire wall will need to be cut away.
-- 57.9 cm back to rear fire wall
-- 8.8 cm back to rear of frame cross member (which holds motor mounts)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 5
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 03:23:10 -0000
From: theshovel1224@xxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Winner of the Gold DeLorean
--- In dmcnews@xxxx, Martin Gutkowski <webmaster@xxxx> wrote:
>
>
> theshovel1224@xxxx wrote:
>
> >
> > 4301-black interior, automatic, Bank in Snyder, TX
>
> Nope - it's a manual. The rest is correct. Interestingly, Joe
Murray swore
> blind the two Amex cars had saddle interiors - his wife made the
seats! They
> were both convinced the original pair had tan interiors, but hey,
we've all
> seen the pictures"
>
> Martin
Nope - it's an automatic. If go to http://www.bigtexas.com/dmc
and look at the first picture on the left, you can easily see the
automatic gear selector.
John Yeoman
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 6
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 03:51:11 -0000
From: "Jim Reeve" <ultra@xxxxxxx>
Subject: DeLoreans DO talk to thier owners.
Well, I seriously believe my clutch did what it did for a DAMN good
reason. At the suggestion of Ken Koncelik, I went under the car just
a few minutes ago and started playing with the clutch fork with a
screwdriver. I was wrong, it actually was stuck all the way forward,
a couple taps shot it backwards and I have gears again. Car still
isn't drivable, but while I was down there, I figured I would look at
the trailing arm bolts.
Damn am I glad I did that. My passenger side bolt is missing ALL of
its shims. The whole arm has about 1/2" of lateral freeplay. Nothing
says break the trailing arm bolt like that much freeplay does. I
seriously believe that my DeLorean knew that, and it broke it's own
clutch just to save both of us (me and car) from potentially getting
seriously hurt. Its a shame that the system failure had to be
something moderately costly and difficult (for someone without the
right tools) to do. But any other type of failure I would have had
fixed in a matter of days, and been back on the road.
All the car probably needs now is a new slave cylinder to replace the
one I literally exploded. But I already suspended the insurance
yesterday, and have decided to retire the car for the rest of the year
anyways. In either late fall, early spring, or middle of winter
(depending what kind of storage facility I can get) I still plan to
drop the transmission, and replace all clutch components. While I'm
in there I'm also going to replace the rear main seal on the engine,
and replace both trailing arm bolts with new ones. I will probably
also open up the transmission itself and replace any worn items I
find. Anyone else have other suggestions to do while I'm at all of
this?
Well I suppose now that I have figured out all of my problems I will
quit complaining about them. I guess this just means check your
trailing arms, or your DeLorean will fight back. :-)
Jim Reeve
MNDMC - Minnesota DeLorean Club
A much relieved but still disabled -> DMC-6960
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 7
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 13:53:23 +0800
From: "ian" <ian@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: WANTED : Grey door trim
DMLers,
Has anyone got good condition right and left GREY door trim panels they want
to sell? I want to replace my black panels as I will have new grey carpets
and grey seats in my refurbished car to brighten the interior.
They are parts #s 110504 and 110505 and are the panel that sits below the
window and above the door armrest. I will buy outright or have parts to
exchange from my spares car.
Thanks, IAN
****************
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 8
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 01:48:55 -0400
From: Jack The Stripper <motti@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Packard Tranny
I'm only 22 and I know what a Packard is. Of course I'm not a DeLorean owner. I wish I was. Anyone want to donate one to my "Get Joe a DeLorean" fund? ;-)
Joe
marvin wrote:
> Mike:
> Doth thou speak with thy tongue in cheek? Push button tranny shifter like the ones Chrysler had in the early 60's and Packard transmissions for a Delorean? Are you smelling funny stuff in that fluid you use to polish your car? Slap stick linkage, Hurst, Volvo, Northstar, Rover, ---I can understand these--but not Packard! It died. Let it rest! Plus the fact, alot of the new owners have no idea what a Packard.was !
> Marv.
> #4239
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 9
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 06:30:52 EDT
From: deloreanernst@xxxxxxx
Subject: Re: spare tires & pizza
In a message dated 8/31/01 9:52:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, njp548@xxxxxxx
writes:
> << An alternative is to
> place it on the engine cover under the louvre with a bungee cord and
> drive slow. It is also a great place to put a pizza
I read this "pizza delivery" gag in an old DeLorean World. I assume the
writer was kidding. Two weeks ago, I'm driving solo and need to pick up the
pizza. I figure it will lose half the sauce tilted on the front seat. Could
put it in the boot, but... what the heck... just for the fun of it, on the
engine cover it goes. No problems... I live only two blocks from the pizza
shop. Once is enough, though. Don't want grease marks on my engine cover!
-Wayne
11174
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 10
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 12:21:23 -0000
From: dherv10@xxxxxxx
Subject: Door Lock Module
Group, FYI. I know the door lock module get's a bad rap, and I'm not
trying to make a case for saving it, but let me tell you what I have
found. On my web site you will see version #1 Iss1 #23-425 and
version #3 Iss3 #23-409. These numbers are on the back of PC board.
There was considerable design change as you can tell and I was
wondering why some people have no problems with the door locks and
others do. I took mine out today and I have ver #4 #23-409 ( car vin
11004). Closely looking I found only one minor change on the PC board
placement of a diode, so for all purpose #3 and #4 are the same. But,
like I said I have no problems with my door locks. I also fuse it
with a circuit breaker at 15 amps not 35 or 40, so if there is a
problem with the solenoids or locking mechanism the breaker will trip
and then it's time to look for the problem. If you add a 40 amp
breaker, your adding to the problem of the breaker not being able to
trip and thus burning up the module. I now have replacement diodes
and relay's for inside the module which if they have never been
replaced, more than likly the relay's are burnt and one of the diodes
is chared or burnt.
I have also seen some unsoldered components and
some wire leads broke. My point is, if you want me to take a look at
your module I will and I have the parts to fix them.I think the early
ones may have been designed wrong and corrected later, so if you have
ver 1, it may not be worth saving. But 3 and 4 with new relay's and a
15 amp breaker may save some money. As far as them tripping on there
on, I know that if the door mechanizm doesn't accuate, then how would
they get power to turn on the locks. I think that problem is in the
door. I will look into it later.
Just some food for thought.
John hervey
http://www.specialtauto.com/talk-view.shtml
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 11
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 13:44:58 -0000
From: delorean502@xxxxxxxxxx
Subject: "escape from LA"
while searching delorean things on the web, I came across this page
http://www.geocities.com/scifiscripts/scripts/escapela.txt
its the script for "Escape from LA". Did anyone see this movie, and
if you did, did you see a "rusting Delorean" anywhere? below is the
section of the script I am talking about.
EXT. UNDERWATER - UNIVERSAL CITY - THE BLACK TOWER - NIGHT
The sub smacks into the side of the Black Tower, powers through
it, blasts out the other side through a window, tilting and
wobbling. The sub rights itself momentarily but is slammed
downward out of frame by a huge, dark, slimy object.
KING KONG looms overhead - his fist rising and falling with the
currents. Plissken has maneuvered himself into the wreckage of the
Universal Studios Tour.
The sub zips through the King Kong ride into Back To The Future,
passing 1950's signage from that film, dodging a rusting Delorean.
It slams into the open mouth of JAWS, shattering the model into a
million pieces.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 12
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 08:48:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Horseman of PA <the_horseman_pa@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: "escape from LA"
I saw the movie, that scean is pared down the only
asspect of it is the Jaws shark which snaps at the
sub, there is no ride through the King Kong or Back to
the Future ride, plus it is all CGI and takes place
underwater, You cant see mutch, but this scean is
noware near as long as in the scrip, this scip that
you found must be a pre production version, they
usually wont write a post production scrip due to the
fact that the movie is finished and it is no longer
needed unless it might be done by a fan based
originization.
--- delorean502@xxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> while searching delorean things on the web, I came
> across this page
>
>
http://www.geocities.com/scifiscripts/scripts/escapela.txt
>
> its the script for "Escape from LA". Did anyone see
> this movie, and
> if you did, did you see a "rusting Delorean"
> anywhere? below is the
> section of the script
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 13
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 11:58:57 -0700
From: "Montgomery, Ken" <kenm@xxxxxxxx>
Subject: Update: West Coast Show - September 20-23
Everything is coming together for the West Coast DeLorean/Bricklin
Celebration on September 20-23. We now have P.J. Grady, DMC Houston and the
DeLorean Motor Center attending, so we'll have some great Tech Seminars. And
along with the DeLorean Owners Association and others, many cool items will
be available for purchase in our dealers room.
We're busy acquiring goody bag stuffers so everyone will have plenty of neat
items as soon as they check in. In addition, we have been receiving raffle
items from all the above organizations. Plus, www.drinkholders.com is
providing one of their $90 double cup holders designed especially for the
DeLorean and they are providing a new double cup holder designed
specifically for the Bricklin. We have also received stainless steel items
from www.delorean-steel-products.com. Our grand prize for our Friday evening
at the Blackhawk will be a DeLorean model kit made especially for the show.
If you would like a printed flier, email me with your address and I'll send
one out. The fliers and on-line registration are also available on our club
website at: http://www.ncdmc.org. Our registration deadline is coming up
soon and I wouldn't want any of you to miss this wonderful event!
In case any of you are in the Sacramento area this weekend, I'll be
displaying my car (and handing out Car Show and information fliers) all day
Sunday at the California State Fair at the "American Pop Culture Classic Car
Show".
Ken
======================================================
Don't miss The 2001 DeLorean/Bricklin West Coast Celebration!!
September 20-23, San Ramon, California
Ken Montgomery, President, Northern California DeLorean Motor Club
mailto:kenm@xxxxxxxx http://www.ncdmc.org (916) 944-3252
=======================================================
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 14
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 21:34:37 -0000
From: sk1pper@xxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: about ac vacuum system
i know this might seem odd, but a wile back the center vents stopped
working. the sides still did, so i knew the system was not a total
loss. i found a man that worked at a dealership here locally that
fixed it the first time. it was an unplugged air hose. bestdes the
obvious "go back to him" fix, there does not seem to be anything
unplugged. the air still flows throughout when i manually engage the ?
accumulator? under the dash next to the vents on the passengers side.
two questions
1. how much vacuum pressure should there be in laymans terms coming
from the tube when i take it off the accumulator and test it in the
palm of my hand.
not noticeable
noticeable
pulls the skin
2. does anyone know the installation sequence of the hoses to the
back of the controls. ive noticed they have numbers.
www.sk1pper.com
vin #10246
ps looking for kirk brandon who owned a blue D. i still have his
fathers license plate!
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 15
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 23:42:29 GMT
From: "Jim Reeve"<ultra@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Clutch is working again!
Well, I did what most would consider either impossible or just stupid. After
poping the clutch fork back into place last night, I figured I would remove
the slave cylinder to inspect the damage to it. Today I did remove it, and
completely dismantled it. After cleaning it all out, I put it back together
again, and jury-rigged a link to the clutch fork. I filled the system back
up and did a semi-bleed, and I can move the car around again. I can go through
all gears like new. I still plan on just parking the car for the rest of the
year then replacing the entire clutch in winter or spring, but I would really
like to also drive it to the Minnesota fall get-together. I will order trailing
arm shims and put them on my loose bolt next week. This just goes to show you
how intelligent the car really is. Once it figured out I found the problem
with the trailing arm, it allowed me to fix it easily and inexpensively. I've
uploaded a picture of my dismantled slave cylinder to the files section. I
suspect that the push-rod for the clutch fork is not stock, and is somthing
the previous owner put in probably when replacing the slave cylinder. I've
uploaded another picture to the files section, this one shows all of the components
in the slave cylinder including the strange push-rod. As always, comments are
appreceated. And perhaps this time I WILL stop posting all of these comments.
Heh.
Here is the slave cylinder...
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dmcnews/files/Slave%20Cylinder
Jim Reeve
MNDMC - Minnesota DeLorean Club
DMC-6960 <-Now, by some twist of fate, driveable!
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 16
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 20:58:10 EDT
From: Soma576@xxxxxxx
Subject: rattle in the steering column
Hey all,
lately i've noticed a rattle near my steering column when i hit railroad
tracks or when i'm taking a turn that is bumpy. it feels like something is
hitting it, like bouncing on the steering column and i can't figure out what
it could be. i can also feel it through the clutch pedal! it started doing
it about the same time that i replaced my clutch master cylinder and clutch
line. also i had my dash removed so i could inspect the wiring to my temp
gauge. but i was sure to get that good and tight - if you try to shake the
dash it won't move - all 6 nuts are on tight.
anyone have any ideas? it's kind of annoying! and possibly dangerous?
Andy
Soma576@xxxxxxx
1982 DeLorean DMC-12 VIN#11596
Fargo, ND 58102
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 17
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 21:59:20 EDT
From: Delorean17@xxxxxxx
Subject: strange idle
Hi,
Ever since I have purchase my car it has had a small idle problem.
Sometimes it acts like the microswitch isn't engaging and will idle around
1300 Rpm's or so. The microswitch is properly adjusted and clicks everytime
the pedal is down. If you rev the engine high and then let it come back down
it will idle correctly around 800 Rpm's. I think the idle speed motor may be
sticking. When I remove the connector from the idle speed motor nothing
happens. Driving with it hooked up or disconnected makes no difference in
the cars idling. Yes, the 3 adjustment screws on the intake are all the way
in. I cleaned the motor contacts but still nothing. I know where a Volvo
760 is that has the same idle speed motor. I will take a trip out and get it
if you think that is what it could be. Any ideas would be greatly
appreciated.
Thanks
David
#6286, any Grand Rapids, MI area owners on here??
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 18
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 03:56:33 -0000
From: jtrealty@xxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: strange idle
Even though you hear the micro switch clicking it still may be
defective. You should check it with a continuity meter and also
visually examine the wiring and connecters going to it. It could be a
corroded contact in a plug or maybe the micro got wet and is rusty
inside. When the micro "kicks in" you should hear a noticiable change
in the idle of the motor. The idle motor has a low failure rate so you
should be checking everything else before condeming it. Also check
that the throttle just makes the switch click, if it bangs the switch
that could damage the insides of the micro. Check fuse #1 10 amp.
Refer to workshop manual M:18:09 and go through the circuit component
by component.
David Teitelbaum
vin 10757
--- In dmcnews@xxxx, Delorean17@xxxx wrote:
> Hi,
> Ever since I have purchase my car it has had a small idle
problem.
> Sometimes it acts like the microswitch isn't engaging and will idle
around
> 1300 Rpm's or so.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Back to the Home of PROJECT VIXEN