RE: [DMCForum] Re: Discrimination: Actually DeLorean related.

["timnagin" <timnagin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Excellent post, Robert.  Thanks for that!

Greg


-----Original Message-----
From: therealdmcvegas [mailto:dmcvegas@xxxxxxx]
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 8:33 AM
To: DMCForum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [DMCForum] Re: Discrimination: Actually DeLorean related.




Actually, that answers it totally, Video Bob. And that was the point
that I was trying to get at, to make sure that vendors are not simply
going to stop selling to anyone on a whim.

And before I go any further, I'd just like to give a HUGE thanks to
both Video Bob, and Toby Peterson both, for making such a pledge to
everyone. And I, and I'm sure that countless others both endlessly
appreciate this.

You''re right, D-1 is the best example, but is even more well
documented off-list. Bernstien as I was told was a VERY active member
of the DeLorean community for many years. The only thing that exceeded
his activeness, was his friendliness. I've heard that there were
instances where he actually had guest rooms in his house where he let
some owners crash in overnight, if they were waiting for repairs that
couldn't be completed until the next day.

According to what I have been unofficially told, all of this changed
in the mid-90's. Some say that he just became a little less friendly
here and there over the phone, and in person. And the true turning
point where all of this became obvious was on the DML. As I understand
it, the DML's roots started in the USENET newsgroups. I want to say
"alt.rec.autos.delorean". But being restricted to newsgroups, only
really savvy internet users were able to find it. And this changed
when James Espy created the DML mailing list. A short little fun fact
is there were allot of people that had questions about certain systems
on the car that had been changed over the production run. Systems like
the fuel pump, A/C accumulator, radios, recall kits, etc. So in order
to determine who had what installed on their cars, the posting of your
VIN # was requested, so that other owners would know what odd quirks,
components, or systems you had installed on your car. This of course
turned into a thing of pride when everyone wanted to place their VIN#
at the end of all their posts, as a sort of way to show off their car.

Now, as the DML was born, and internet usage increased, lots more
people were finding out about the DML. Which has been great, since you
got more people to socialize with one another, and exchange
information. Some guy in who knows where has a DeLorean, and then
reads the DML, and finds out that there is another owner in his town
he never knew of. Better yet, people who had DeLoreans, that had some
sort of mechanical problem that kept their car off the road for God
knows how long, were now only a few clicks, and a few hours away from
getting a reply. Versus the old way of writing a letter in to a
magazine that would only publish an answer once a quarter. And even
then, you'd have to hope that they chose to acknowledge your letter,
and publish it.

Now, this angered quite a few people alone who were running the
DeLorean Owners Association (DOA), because another item that lots of
owners were discussing was price shopping vendors, and discontent with
the DOA. Plus when places like D-1, and other owners were trying to
artificially increase the values of DeLoreans by asking for higher
prices when they sold them, the DML was killing their ability. Yes,
while DeLorean prices have increased, we've only really seen this
because of two factors: 1. Steve Wynn @ DMCH is now the consultant for
NADA when they set their price guides, and his company released the
"Buyers Checklist". 2. More importantly, the new generation of
hard-core DeLorean owners are now settled in with the majority of the
cars that were available. At one point in the late 1990's, the market
was suddenly being flooded with cars from people who didn't know how
to perform proper upkeep, and just wanted to be rid of the cars. And
with the help of that "Buyer's Checklist" from DMCH, it allowed MANY
of us buyers to successfully low-ball sellers who in many cases knew
less about these vehicles they had owned for a number of years, then
us newbies who had only been reading the DML, and our Workshop
Manuals. And who knows if it was Y2K fears, but as the millennium
approached, the number of cars offered for sale increased ALOT, and
then dropped of after the new year arrived. In December 1999, I
counted 84 DeLoreans listed in Auto Trader alone. That doesn't count
Classic Car Trader, Hemmings, nor other sales magazines.

Now, you're probably wondering why you've not heard allot of this on
the DML. And that is because Ed Bernstein had at one point threatened
to file some sort of slander law suit against Espy, and various
members of the DML, for slander, and defamation of character. I don't
know what the saving grace was there (save for the fact law suits
would have to have been placed separately in ever single state where
each DML'er lived), but the lawsuit as I have heard it, never
happened. However, in a move that I can totally agree with, the DML
moderators will not allow anyone to post anything that is potentially
grounds for a lawsuit from Ed, to be posted to the list. This is to
both protect the moderators themselves, and those members who post. An
example of course is when I posted an article where I referred to Ed
as, "Special-Ed". The post was rejected until I edited it, and removed
that statement, and the post was accepted.

Now as for some examples, I can certainly give those to you. One
prominent DML member related a story to me, where he had never had a
problem with Ed Bernstein in the past. Until one day when he had
posted to the DML the fact that he found certain parts offered for
sale by Daryl Tinnerstet @ Specialty Automotive were cheaper than D-1.
After some time had passed, he called D-1 to purchase some parts.
After Ed got his VIN, he placed him on hold. A few minutes had passed,
and when he came back on the line, Ed simply told him that he didn't
have any parts available that would work for his car, and hung up.
Many others on the DML'ers both on, and off the list had related
similar stories. Especially when Ed had recommended that they shop at
other parts suppliers that they had mentioned in their DML posts. And
as a member of the DML, Bernstein tracks everyone who's ever had
anything remotely negative to say about him, by recording their name &
VIN # in a little database file. So when you call in, and he asks for
your VIN #, it's to check up on you, and make sure that you're not on
his little nasty list.

Another example was those people who had expressed discontent with the
DOA. Some were not pleased with various attitudes that they had, and
the content of the magazine. Specifically how the magazine seemed to
favor recommending buying parts from one vendor in particular, and how
the chose to omit invaluable information that many DIY
owners/meachanics needed. Specifically when it appeared in the 80's
that a large number of DeLoreans had problems with engine fires. This
of course was due to amateur mechanics who had no idea that you're not
supposed to re-use the copper seals on the fuel injectors. Since this
kind of information has come out on the DML, I've no stories have ever
been published since of engine fires (save for specific vandalism).
Plus it pissed lots of people off when it was published why auto trans
computers were failing, and how you could simply bust out a soldering
iron, and head down to your local electronics store for a handful of
components, and repair everything yourself. Versus having to buy an
entirely new computer and harness from a vendor, let alone having to
worry about taking the entire car down, to let them do the work. But
rest assured, since the DML has come out, Im certain that vendors have
seen their business increase overall, since there are now more cars on
the road. Save for those who have not advertised as heavily.

Now, I too have had my own private run-ins with D-1, and the DOA.
After showing up one night, years before I ever became an owner, my
mother and I were chased off the property. Not because we were
trespassing, but because I would not entertain the idea of buying one
of their refurbished cars. I stated that I wanted to restore the car
myself, but asked about them either examining a potential car, or even
if they would simply allow me to farm out certain work on a car to
them, that I would opt not to complete myself. I was given a very firm
"No.", and we were then informed that it was closing time for the
shop, and we were "escorted" back to our car, as she hurried us out of
the shop, and got pissed when I touched her car.

I've also had problems with various DOA people as well. I believe it
was some guy by the name of Dick Shipman. We didn't get along to well
after I posted that the DOA was not a car club that would be able to
help me out at all, when it came to maintaining, and further enjoying
my car. He gave me some noise about me not knowing what I was talking
about, since I wasn't a member. As the e-mails continued, he told me
to come out to California, and he'd pick me up at the airport
personally, and drive me to their next meeting @ the Peterson Museum.
I said sure, but that wasn't necessary, because I was only in Vegas,
and could be there in a few short hours. Tell me what meeting room you
guys will be in, and I'll see you next weekend. I never heard back
from him ever again.

Same with other DOA people, like that Travis guy who kept trying to
goad me into arguments, and silly shit like that. I even caught some
static from Hank Breer who never had anything to say to me, until I
had some potential information about his car, and it's origins, since
his VIN wasn't a true one (it was a state assigned one from Alaska).
After I met his son one night in Vegas, he asked me why I wasn't a DOA
member, and I spoke my mind.  The only reason Hank ever wanted to talk
to me, was to get that information on his car, and he was pretty damn
sharpish about it. I got an e-mail the next day. After that, I never
heard from him again. Even after I e-mailed him proceeding our
initial, friendly conversation. However, just like I stated in my
opinion about age being Ed Bernstein's biggest threat, rather than my
lack of patronage, it looks like mortality finally caught up with 'ol
Hank, since his daughter is now liquidating his estate, and I bought
some of the stuff off of her.

Hank's death of course should have really sent the message home that
the older generation of owners, DOA people in particular, that they
don't have all that much time left. IMO, it would be nice to hear some
of their stories, and pick their brains on allot of things. But it
won't come at the price of me playing this "Whose ass should I kiss
now?" game that lots of people want us owners to participate in.
Especially with the DOA. I was up @ Bauerle Automotive here in Ohio
(I'm here on an extended business trip), and met another older
gentleman from the Columbus area who happened to own 2 DeLoreans. As
we talked, and the conversation turned towards the DOA, he made the
comment to me that he cannot stand the new "DeLorean World" magazine.
Being a long standing member, he told me that even he has decided not
to renew his membership, because the DOA has just skipped the tracks,
and is no longer focused on what it's members needs are. And this is a
guy who is now retired, and likes to travel.

In the end, allot of us have seen this problem with vendors not
wanting to sell items to people, because of petty differences in
opinion. And I'm extremely pleased to hear that two people have so far
promised not to stoop down to such a childish level. I really do
applaud you both.

As for D-1 & the DOA? Well, what more can I say, except that we'll
just have to bide our time until they die. Maybe then we can stage a
"coup" of sorts, and take back the club, as a hub to bring everyone
even further together.

---

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