Re: [doc] Re: re still doesn't idle ok

[Nick Tomlinson <nickandkathryntomlinson@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

I will wait until you have completed all the tests.
   
  NickT
   
  (Personally I test using test equipment not part swapping .)
  
blackaddertoo <blackaddertoo@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
  i will check the motor with 12v by hand, but Martin at dmuk has 
already put both motor and ecu on his car and he said it ran normaly
with no problems.

Regards

Steve

--- In doc-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Nick Tomlinson 
wrote:
>
> If the car idles and runs with the brass screws only and revs up 
OK then the fault would be with the idle system.
> 
> The air for the idle speed is drawn from under the air metering 
flap (brass tube behind) and is in this location so that the air 
consumed is still metered for correct fuelling.
> 
> If you have followed the checks I have given you correctly then 
it is the idle speed motor or the ecu.
> 
> See my previous post how to check the idle speed motor itself.
> Do this with the motor off the car so you can see the valve 
opening and closing.
> This valve is not sprung return in any way so just seeing it 
open would be co-incidental as you can open or close it just by 
slight hand movement.
> 
> If this is OK then I would say it was the ecu.
> 
> NickT.
> 
> blackaddertoo wrote:
> hi
> 
> i have not tried yet.
> 
> went down at lunch time and checked the coil terminal 1 to idle 
> ecu...gues what checked out ok with continuity test (and long 
wire).
> 
> checked if the yellow lead from coil to capacitor checked earth 
and 
> it did but i could not get the body of the capacitor to check out 
to 
> earth, i can only see the yellow lead going in and i assumed the 
> body was earth.
> 
> so iv'e pretty much run out of checks to do!?
> what i might try is close the idle motor with 12V.
> 
> then try to start (obviously should not)
> then momentarily earth the one side to open the valve slightly and 
> try again, to see if i can get her to idle taking the air through 
> the motor. at present the valve looks very open...should it be 
like 
> this when cold? or is too much air being pulled in.
> 
> i am trying to establish if the fault lies in the tube the idle 
> motor conects to or perhaps some kind of blockage in the air 
> manifold bypass.
> as the idle screws take the air direct through the main duct, 
> whereas the idle motor take it the bypass route. this is correct 
is 
> it not?.
> 
> just hop all this lot is not masking some other problem like the 
> lambda system, but i thought if the lambda system is on the blink 
> the the car should run rich (and not affect the idle)?
> 
> 
> Regards
> 
> Steve
> 
> 
> 
> --- In doc-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Richard Hutchinson" 
> wrote:
> >
> > Can you get it to idle at anything less than 1500 on the screws?
> > 
> > Rich H
> > DOC 365 VIN 1274
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: doc-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:doc-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] 
On 
> Behalf
> > Of
> > > blackaddertoo
> > > Sent: 19 January 2006 02:28
> > > To: doc-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: [doc] Re: re still doesn't idle ok
> > > 
> > > Hi
> > > 
> > > thanx Mike and Nick and anyone else who've helped.
> > > 
> > > i live near wolverhampton.
> > > 
> > > a good idea to drive...but...is not yet mot'd/registered.
> > > i know i could book her in then drive to the test station but 
i 
> have
> > > to do the track rod ends (bolts are rusty and want to make 
sure 
> they
> > > are safe)
> > > i need a front screen (but that could wait till after an mot 
run.
> > > 
> > > but main part i need a small section of frame welding, on 
> passenger
> > > side by fuel tank.
> > > tank has got to come out again.
> > > 
> > > i will probably run the last checks on the coil feed, and if 
that
> > > does not work, readjust the screws and back out the garage and 
> warm
> > > up (extinguisher at ready as first time for 12 years)
> > > 
> > > i may also put 12v across the idle motor to make it shut, then
> > > reconnect and see if it reopens.
> > > 
> > > i also wondered if i am looking in the wrong place for the 
> fault, as
> > > obviously the idle motor feeds the air down the bypass brass 
> pipe,
> > > whereas the screws feed it though the main manifold inlets.
> > > 
> > > so is my bypass pipe ok ( i have removed and replaced the seal)
> > > 
> > > i also have not tried to start while holding the flap down a 
> touch
> > > (i think this enriches the mixture???)
> > > 
> > > thanx for the help, and believe it or not i enjoy the 
challenge 
> of
> > > working on the car.
> > > 
> > > Regards
> > > 
> > > Steve
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In doc-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Mike Bosworth" 
> 
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi Steve
> > > >
> > > > If your car idles 'ok 'with the brass screw method and is ok 
to
> > > > drive ,then taking it for a real good run is going to help,
> > > > especially if its been sat some time like it appears to have 
> been.
> > > >
> > > > At the end of this run how see how well the car has 
performed 
> and
> > > > run, does it smell like its overfueling, missing, poor
> > > acceleration
> > > > etc etc, also an exhaust gas analyzer will give you a good
> > > indication
> > > > of how well the car is set up mixture wise, if thats way off 
> its
> > > not
> > > > going to help for starters, but as has been previously said, 
> dont
> > > > start fiddling with the mixture screw willy nilly ( now 
> theres a
> > > > phrase for you :) )
> > > >
> > > > Take it for a real good drive and let us know how it goes. 
If 
> it
> > > goes
> > > > well then at least you have narrowed it down.
> > > >
> > > > I agree with all Nick is saying, and unfortunatly in this 
> instance
> > > > there is only so much help people can give without actually 
> seeing
> > > > the car, but we will keep trying are there any other owners 
> near
> > > by
> > > > to you? ...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Kind Regards
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > > #2001
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > however i cannot understand why the car idles with the 
brass
> > > screws
> > > > > adjusted.
> > > > > perhaps i need to see if the car warms up fully and drives 
ok
> > > that
> > > > > way?
> > > > > thanx again for your assistance.
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards
> > > > >
> > > > > Steve
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In doc-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Nick Tomlinson
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The coil connection is for pickup for the ignition 
> amplifier
> > > > which
> > > > > is separate.
> > > > > > If this was faulty your car would not run at all (i.e. no
> > > spark)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You will need to remove the coil cover and check for
> > > continuity
> > > > > between terminal marked "1" or "CB" and the pin at the idle
> > > speed
> > > > > ecu multiplug. Wire is white and slate I think. If this 
> cable is
> > > > > open circuit then the idle speed ecu has no engine speed
> > > feedback.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The blue wire (shielded) goes to the fuel computer and 
is 
> from
> > > > > the oxygen sensor input cable.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You should now have checked all the wiring and assuming 
you
> > > have
> > > > > put the diode in the correct way round (stripe to the 
> throttle
> > > > > switch) there is nothing else I can suggest apart from 
> removing
> > > the
> > > > > idle control valve and looking at the rotary valve when you
> > > first
> > > > > put the ignition to position 2. The valve should be 
> controlled
> > > to
> > > > > fully open. If the valve fully closes then the 2 control 
> wires
> > > are
> > > > > on the wrong way round or the plug has been shove on the 
> wrong
> > > way
> > > > > round.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is assuming that the ecu and valve have been 
checked 
> out
> > > OK
> > > > > btu I think you have had that confirmed already.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > One last thing I can think is that the ecu multiplugs 
have
> > > been
> > > > > put on the ecu the wrong way round but it is easy to tell 
if 
> the
> > > 4
> > > > > wired one goes to the right hand side socket on the ecu 
when
> > > > viewing
> > > > > the pins on the ecu.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > NickT
> > > > > >
> > > > > > blackaddertoo wrote:
> > > > > > Hi Nick and all
> > > > > >
> > > > > > managed to slope off a site early, with tools in the 
boot 
> and
> > > do
> > > > > > some more testing.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > checked diode with meter...reads 700 on diode test and 
> tried
> > > with
> > > > > a
> > > > > > test light and jump battery, lights one way and not the 
> other
> > > so
> > > > i
> > > > > > think the didode is ok.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > now with key on, in ignition positive power is ok at 
middle
> > > > > > connection idle speed motor.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ground connection at idle mutliplug checks ok for 
> continuity
> > > with
> > > > > > body panel ie -ve ok.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > checked continuity of other two connections at idle speed
> > > motor
> > > > > plug.
> > > > > > checks ok at ecu multiplug, ie no break in wire
> > > > > >
> > > > > > checked pulse coil connection on left side of rear 
engine 
> at
> > > fire
> > > > > > wall...checks at 550 ohms...is this ok as specialT say 
this
> > > > should
> > > > > > be about 600+ ohms
> > > > > >
> > > > > > the only lead lest to check is the feed from the 
coil...do 
> i
> > > take
> > > > > > off the coil cover and investigate there? i could not 
quite
> > > see
> > > > > > where the leads go...assuming it connects at the ecu 
> mutliplug.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > tried again to start..runs 10 seconds then chugs and 
dies 
> as
> > > if
> > > > > the
> > > > > > engine is being starved of air/petrol...but it did idle 
> fine
> > > with
> > > > > > the brass screws adjusted.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > one thing to note...a mouse has been living with the 
ecus 
> in
> > > the
> > > > > > corner behind the drivers seat.
> > > > > > the blue wire (i think it is the feed for the 02 sensor
> > > maybe?)
> > > > or
> > > > > > is the the coil connection has a small amount of chew 
> marks,
> > > > > > exposing the wire below...does not look like the wire 
> itself
> > > has
> > > > > > been damaged, however i think this looks like a shielded 
> cable
> > > so
> > > > > > can't be good.
> > > > > > maybe i might have to remove all the mutliplugs and the 
> metal
> > > > > > support and check all the wiring out.
> > > > > > if the lambda ecu/wiring was faulty would the car idle 
with
> > > brass
> > > > > > screw adjustment? i thought not?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > thanx for any help.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > a mouse also chewed through my headlight wiring and the 
> rear
> > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > indicator plastic!!!! haven't found any dead ones though.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > regards
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Steve
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In doc-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Nick Tomlinson
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The resistance test is a simple one on a diode and you
> > > remember
> > > > > > correctly.
> > > > > > > Diodes though can become 'leaky' when the PN junction 
> breaks
> > > > > > down which is why you check with the diode function. 
This 
> will
> > > > > show
> > > > > > the voltage drop across the junction and depending on 
type
> > > should
> > > > > > show no voltage drop one way and between 500mV and 800mV 
> the
> > > > other.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "
> > > > > > > "Put your multimeter to volts. Connect the red cable of
> > > meter
> > > > to
> > > > > > > > jump start post. Use black lead to check for throttle
> > > switch
> > > > > > input
> > > > > > > (AT THE ECU MULTIPLUG) meter should read battery 
voltage
> > > with
> > > > > > > throttle closed (switch
> > > > > > > > operated) and no voltage with throttle open.""
> > > > > > > according to the workshop manual, does this input not 
> just
> > > earth
> > > > > > > when the switch is closed (car at idle) so to test i 
> earthed
> > > it
> > > > > > with
> > > > > > > diode removed then tried to start car.
> > > > > > > "
> > > > > > > Yes, the unit does earth this switched point when the
> > > throttle
> > > > > > is closed.
> > > > > > > The test I give will show if there is any feedback 
> voltage
> > > from
> > > > > > the other circuit showing the diode has gone short, 
leaky 
> or
> > > open
> > > > > > circuit. I am presuming that you earthed this input at an
> > > earth
> > > > > > point like the engine block or better yet the -VE 
battery 
> post.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hope the circuit diagram I sent to you makes the 
> connections
> > > > > > clear.
> > > > > > > Chances are you have an earth lead off somewhere so 
the 
> unit
> > > > > > isn't earthing at the earth pin.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It's always harder to explain in words what you could 
do
> > > > > > yourself in 20 minutes.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This problem will be fixed soon.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > NickT.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > blackaddertoo wrote:
> > > > > > > Hi Nick
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > thanx for the reply. Don't worry you can talk 
technical 
> as i
> > > > > used
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > do a bit of hobby electronics, building transmitters 
etc,
> > > > simple
> > > > > > > logic circuits etc.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > i thought the screw which has a lead to it earthed the 
> ecu.
> > > > > > > i will recheck the multiplug earth.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > i will check for continuity from ecu multiplug to idle
> > > motor.
> > > > > did
> > > > > > > not have any wire long enough yesterday, as the car is
> > > parked
> > > > > away
> > > > > > > from home.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Put your multimeter to volts. Connect the red cable of
> > > meter
> > > > to
> > > > > > > > jump start post. Use black lead to check for throttle
> > > switch
> > > > > > input
> > > > > > > (AT THE ECU MULTIPLUG) meter should read battery 
voltage
> > > with
> > > > > > > throttle closed (switch
> > > > > > > > operated) and no voltage with throttle open.""
> > > > > > > according to the workshop manual, does this input not 
> just
> > > earth
> > > > > > > when the switch is closed (car at idle) so to test i 
> earthed
> > > it
> > > > > > with
> > > > > > > diode removed then tried to start car.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > the diode, i must be wrong but i thought it would read
> > > > > continuity
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > one direction ie no resistance one way and 100% the 
> other,
> > > but
> > > > i
> > > > > > > couldn't remember back to my electronics days.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Regards
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Steve
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In doc-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Nick Tomlinson
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You said you checked the earth by:
> > > > > > > > "earth check with continuity tester from screw into 
> base
> > > to
> > > > > car
> > > > > > > body,
> > > > > > > > to ecu multiplug"
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > This mounting screw just holds the ecu to the metal 
> frame
> > > > > which
> > > > > > > is earthed.
> > > > > > > > The earth on the ecu is actually one of the pins on 
> the 6
> > > pin
> > > > > > > multiplug so check this first using the test:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Put your multimeter to volts. Connect the red cable 
of
> > > meter
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > > jump start post. Use black lead to check for earth 
at 
> ecu
> > > > > MULTI
> > > > > > > PLUG, meter
> > > > > > > > should read battery voltage."
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Check continuity of all wires from the idle speed 
ecu 
> plug.
> > > > > > > > Especially those to the idle speed motor.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "so how do i check the input from the coil/distibuter
> > > (which
> > > > i
> > > > > > > assume
> > > > > > > > gives the rpm signal (also runs the rev counter 
> input?)"
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Said this in last message
> > > > > > > > "You can check for continuity using the resistance 
> setting
> > > on
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > multimeter and check for wire continuity between the
> > > switched
> > > > > > side
> > > > > > > > of the coil to the ecu plug, (remove the ecu first). 
If
> > > there
> > > > > is
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > suppressor, temporarily disconnect it in case this 
has
> > > gone
> > > > > bad."
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Your test on continuity test through the diode would 
> give
> > > a
> > > > > > > result dependant on the positive feed from your 
> multimeter
> > > for
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > continuity test. This will be blocked or passed 
through 
> (in
> > > > > > laymans
> > > > > > > terms) due to the characteristic of the diode itself, 
> hence
> > > the
> > > > > > > diode test.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Put the diode back in the circuit and do the test as 
> in my
> > > > > > > previous message
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Put your multimeter to volts. Connect the red cable 
of
> > > meter
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > > jump start post. Use black lead to check for throttle
> > > switch
> > > > > > input
> > > > > > > (AT THE ECU MULTIPLUG) meter should read battery 
voltage
> > > with
> > > > > > > throttle closed (switch
> > > > > > > > operated) and no voltage with throttle open."
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Do you have a circuit diagram of the idle speed ecu ?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > NickT.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > blackaddertoo wrote:
> > > > > > > > hi Nick
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > thanx for the post...i know a long one but here 
hoes..
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > earth check with continuity tester from screw into 
> base to
> > > > car
> > > > > > > body,
> > > > > > > > to ecu multiplug
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > connected test light to main power ecu 
> multiplug...lights
> > > > with
> > > > > > > > ignition each time (tested fuse-ok)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > check throttle switch input before/after diode, 
> continuity
> > > > > > before
> > > > > > > > (with earth) non afterbut reads about 700 on doide 
> test on
> > > > > meter
> > > > > > > > from your comment this looks about right but removed 
> diode
> > > > > > > > completely to test further. does not activate 
> continuity
> > > > > buzzer
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > positive or neg current...thought it should.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > have not checked coil to ecu or ecu plug to idle plug
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > thermister has been replaced a couple of weeks 
> ago...reads
> > > > > about
> > > > > > > > 1800 ohms cold so that is ok i think.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > tried earthing the throttle input and starting the
> > > car....car
> > > > > > did
> > > > > > > > the same...runs for 15 secs then chugs and dies.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > car idles ok (1500rpm) with brass screws adjusted so 
i
> > > assume
> > > > > co
> > > > > > > > adjustment is ok otherwise it would not run?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > so how do i check the input from the coil/distibuter
> > > (which i
> > > > > > > assume
> > > > > > > > gives the rpm signal (also runs the rev counter 
input?)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > i'm running out of things to test but surely my 
> problems
> > > are
> > > > > > here
> > > > > > > > somewhere.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Regards
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Steve
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In doc-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Nick Tomlinson
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > How did you check the earth connection at the ecu 
> multi
> > > > plug?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Have you checked for a switched connected at the 
ecu
> > > > > multiplug
> > > > > > > > from the throttle switch?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Put your multimeter to volts. Connect the red 
cable 
> of
> > > > meter
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > jump start post. Use black lead to check for earth 
at 
> ecu,
> > > > > meter
> > > > > > > > should read battery voltage.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Put your multimeter to volts. Connect the red 
cable 
> of
> > > > meter
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > jump start post. Use black lead to check for throttle
> > > switch
> > > > > > > input,
> > > > > > > > meter should read battery voltage with throttle 
closed
> > > > (switch
> > > > > > > > operated) and no voltage with throttle open.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > With the ECU plugged in, check the multiplug that 
> goes
> > > to
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > idle speed motor, the centre pin should have 12v on 
it
> > > (with
> > > > > key
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > ignition and tuned to position 2) continuously. The 

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