[doc] Re: re still doesn't idle ok

["blackaddertoo" <blackaddertoo@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

hi

i have not tried yet.

went down at lunch time and checked the coil terminal 1 to idle 
ecu...gues what checked out ok with continuity test (and long wire).

checked if the yellow lead from coil to capacitor checked earth and 
it did but i could not get the body of the capacitor to check out to 
earth, i can only see the yellow lead going in and i assumed the 
body was earth.

so iv'e pretty much run out of checks to do!?
what i might try is close the idle motor with 12V.

then try to start (obviously should not)
then momentarily earth the one side to open the valve slightly and 
try again, to see if i can get her to idle taking the air through 
the motor. at present the valve looks very open...should it be like 
this when cold? or is too much air being pulled in.

i am trying to establish if the fault lies in the tube the idle 
motor conects to or perhaps some kind of blockage in the air 
manifold bypass.
as the idle screws take the air direct through the main duct, 
whereas the idle motor take it the bypass route. this is correct is 
it not?.

just hop all this lot is not masking some other problem like the 
lambda system, but i thought if the lambda system is on the blink 
the the car should run rich (and not affect the idle)?


Regards

Steve



--- In doc-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Richard Hutchinson" <dickyh11@xxxx> 
wrote:
>
> Can you get it to idle at anything less than 1500 on the screws?
> 
> Rich H
> DOC 365 VIN 1274
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: doc-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:doc-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On 
Behalf
> Of
> > blackaddertoo
> > Sent: 19 January 2006 02:28
> > To: doc-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [doc] Re: re still doesn't idle ok
> > 
> > Hi
> > 
> > thanx Mike and Nick and anyone else who've helped.
> > 
> > i live near wolverhampton.
> > 
> > a good idea to drive...but...is not yet mot'd/registered.
> > i know i could book her in then drive to the test station but i 
have
> > to do the track rod ends (bolts are rusty and want to make sure 
they
> > are safe)
> > i need a front screen (but that could wait till after an mot run.
> > 
> > but main part i need a small section of frame welding, on 
passenger
> > side by fuel tank.
> > tank has got to come out again.
> > 
> > i will probably run the last checks on the coil feed, and if that
> > does not work, readjust the screws and back out the garage and 
warm
> > up (extinguisher at ready as first time for 12 years)
> > 
> > i may also put 12v across the idle motor to make it shut, then
> > reconnect and see if it reopens.
> > 
> > i also wondered if i am looking in the wrong place for the 
fault, as
> > obviously the idle motor feeds the air down the bypass brass 
pipe,
> > whereas the screws feed it though the main manifold inlets.
> > 
> > so is my bypass pipe ok ( i have removed and replaced the seal)
> > 
> > i also have not tried to start while holding the flap down a 
touch
> > (i think this enriches the mixture???)
> > 
> > thanx for the help, and believe it or not i enjoy the challenge 
of
> > working on the car.
> > 
> > Regards
> > 
> > Steve
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In doc-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Mike Bosworth" 
<mike.bosworth@xxxx>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Steve
> > >
> > > If your car idles 'ok 'with the brass screw method and is ok to
> > > drive ,then taking it for a real good run is going to help,
> > > especially if its been sat some time like it appears to have 
been.
> > >
> > > At the end of this run how see how well the car has performed 
and
> > > run, does it smell like its overfueling, missing, poor
> > acceleration
> > > etc etc, also an exhaust gas analyzer will give you a good
> > indication
> > > of how well the car is set up mixture wise, if thats way off 
its
> > not
> > > going to help for starters, but as has been previously said, 
dont
> > > start fiddling with the mixture screw willy nilly  ( now 
theres a
> > > phrase for you :) )
> > >
> > > Take it for a real good drive and let us know how it goes. If 
it
> > goes
> > > well then at least you have narrowed it down.
> > >
> > > I agree with all Nick is saying, and unfortunatly in this 
instance
> > > there is only so much help people can give without actually 
seeing
> > > the car, but we will keep trying are there any other owners 
near
> > by
> > > to you?  ...
> > >
> > >
> > > Kind Regards
> > >
> > > Mike
> > > #2001
> > >
> > >
> > > > however i cannot understand why the car idles with the brass
> > screws
> > > > adjusted.
> > > > perhaps i need to see if the car warms up fully and drives ok
> > that
> > > > way?
> > > > thanx again for your assistance.
> > > >
> > > > Regards
> > > >
> > > > Steve
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In doc-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Nick Tomlinson
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > The coil connection is for pickup for the ignition 
amplifier
> > > which
> > > > is separate.
> > > > > If this was faulty your car would not run at all (i.e. no
> > spark)
> > > > >
> > > > > You will need to remove the coil cover and check for
> > continuity
> > > > between terminal marked "1" or "CB" and the pin at the idle
> > speed
> > > > ecu multiplug. Wire is white and slate I think. If this 
cable is
> > > > open circuit then the idle speed ecu has no engine speed
> > feedback.
> > > > >
> > > > > The blue wire (shielded) goes to the fuel computer and is 
from
> > > > the oxygen sensor input cable.
> > > > >
> > > > > You should now have checked all the wiring and assuming you
> > have
> > > > put the diode in the correct way round (stripe to the 
throttle
> > > > switch) there is nothing else I can suggest apart from 
removing
> > the
> > > > idle control valve and looking at the rotary valve when you
> > first
> > > > put the ignition to position 2. The valve should be 
controlled
> > to
> > > > fully open. If the valve fully closes then the 2 control 
wires
> > are
> > > > on the wrong way round or the plug has been shove on the 
wrong
> > way
> > > > round.
> > > > >
> > > > > This is assuming that the ecu and valve have been checked 
out
> > OK
> > > > btu I think you have had that confirmed already.
> > > > >
> > > > > One last thing I can think is that the ecu multiplugs have
> > been
> > > > put on the ecu the wrong way round but it is easy to tell if 
the
> > 4
> > > > wired one goes to the right hand side socket on the ecu when
> > > viewing
> > > > the pins on the ecu.
> > > > >
> > > > > NickT
> > > > >
> > > > > blackaddertoo wrote:
> > > > > Hi Nick and all
> > > > >
> > > > > managed to slope off a site early, with tools in the boot 
and
> > do
> > > > > some more testing.
> > > > >
> > > > > checked diode with meter...reads 700 on diode test and 
tried
> > with
> > > > a
> > > > > test light and jump battery, lights one way and not the 
other
> > so
> > > i
> > > > > think the didode is ok.
> > > > >
> > > > > now with key on, in ignition positive power is ok at middle
> > > > > connection idle speed motor.
> > > > >
> > > > > ground connection at idle mutliplug checks ok for 
continuity
> > with
> > > > > body panel ie -ve ok.
> > > > >
> > > > > checked continuity of other two connections at idle speed
> > motor
> > > > plug.
> > > > > checks ok at ecu multiplug, ie no break in wire
> > > > >
> > > > > checked pulse coil connection on left side of rear engine 
at
> > fire
> > > > > wall...checks at 550 ohms...is this ok as specialT say this
> > > should
> > > > > be about 600+ ohms
> > > > >
> > > > > the only lead lest to check is the feed from the coil...do 
i
> > take
> > > > > off the coil cover and investigate there? i could not quite
> > see
> > > > > where the leads go...assuming it connects at the ecu 
mutliplug.
> > > > >
> > > > > tried again to start..runs 10 seconds then chugs and dies 
as
> > if
> > > > the
> > > > > engine is being starved of air/petrol...but it did idle 
fine
> > with
> > > > > the brass screws adjusted.
> > > > >
> > > > > one thing to note...a mouse has been living with the ecus 
in
> > the
> > > > > corner behind the drivers seat.
> > > > > the blue wire (i think it is the feed for the 02 sensor
> > maybe?)
> > > or
> > > > > is the the coil connection has a small amount of chew 
marks,
> > > > > exposing the wire below...does not look like the wire 
itself
> > has
> > > > > been damaged, however i think this looks like a shielded 
cable
> > so
> > > > > can't be good.
> > > > > maybe i might have to remove all the mutliplugs and the 
metal
> > > > > support and check all the wiring out.
> > > > > if the lambda ecu/wiring was faulty would the car idle with
> > brass
> > > > > screw adjustment? i thought not?
> > > > >
> > > > > thanx for any help.
> > > > >
> > > > > a mouse also chewed through my headlight wiring and the 
rear
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > indicator plastic!!!! haven't found any dead ones though.
> > > > >
> > > > > regards
> > > > >
> > > > > Steve
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In doc-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Nick Tomlinson
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The resistance test is a simple one on a diode and you
> > remember
> > > > > correctly.
> > > > > > Diodes though can become 'leaky' when the PN junction 
breaks
> > > > > down which is why you check with the diode function. This 
will
> > > > show
> > > > > the voltage drop across the junction and depending on type
> > should
> > > > > show no voltage drop one way and between 500mV and 800mV 
the
> > > other.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "
> > > > > > "Put your multimeter to volts. Connect the red cable of
> > meter
> > > to
> > > > > > > jump start post. Use black lead to check for throttle
> > switch
> > > > > input
> > > > > > (AT THE ECU MULTIPLUG) meter should read battery voltage
> > with
> > > > > > throttle closed (switch
> > > > > > > operated) and no voltage with throttle open.""
> > > > > > according to the workshop manual, does this input not 
just
> > earth
> > > > > > when the switch is closed (car at idle) so to test i 
earthed
> > it
> > > > > with
> > > > > > diode removed then tried to start car.
> > > > > > "
> > > > > > Yes, the unit does earth this switched point when the
> > throttle
> > > > > is closed.
> > > > > > The test I give will show if there is any feedback 
voltage
> > from
> > > > > the other circuit showing the diode has gone short, leaky 
or
> > open
> > > > > circuit. I am presuming that you earthed this input at an
> > earth
> > > > > point like the engine block or better yet the -VE battery 
post.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hope the circuit diagram I sent to you makes the 
connections
> > > > > clear.
> > > > > > Chances are you have an earth lead off somewhere so the 
unit
> > > > > isn't earthing at the earth pin.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It's always harder to explain in words what you could do
> > > > > yourself in 20 minutes.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This problem will be fixed soon.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > NickT.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > blackaddertoo wrote:
> > > > > > Hi Nick
> > > > > >
> > > > > > thanx for the reply. Don't worry you can talk technical 
as i
> > > > used
> > > > > to
> > > > > > do a bit of hobby electronics, building transmitters etc,
> > > simple
> > > > > > logic circuits etc.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > i thought the screw which has a lead to it earthed the 
ecu.
> > > > > > i will recheck the multiplug earth.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > i will check for continuity from ecu multiplug to idle
> > motor.
> > > > did
> > > > > > not have any wire long enough yesterday, as the car is
> > parked
> > > > away
> > > > > > from home.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Put your multimeter to volts. Connect the red cable of
> > meter
> > > to
> > > > > > > jump start post. Use black lead to check for throttle
> > switch
> > > > > input
> > > > > > (AT THE ECU MULTIPLUG) meter should read battery voltage
> > with
> > > > > > throttle closed (switch
> > > > > > > operated) and no voltage with throttle open.""
> > > > > > according to the workshop manual, does this input not 
just
> > earth
> > > > > > when the switch is closed (car at idle) so to test i 
earthed
> > it
> > > > > with
> > > > > > diode removed then tried to start car.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > the diode, i must be wrong but i thought it would read
> > > > continuity
> > > > > in
> > > > > > one direction ie no resistance one way and 100% the 
other,
> > but
> > > i
> > > > > > couldn't remember back to my electronics days.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regards
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Steve
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In doc-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Nick Tomlinson
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You said you checked the earth by:
> > > > > > > "earth check with continuity tester from screw into 
base
> > to
> > > > car
> > > > > > body,
> > > > > > > to ecu multiplug"
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This mounting screw just holds the ecu to the metal 
frame
> > > > which
> > > > > > is earthed.
> > > > > > > The earth on the ecu is actually one of the pins on 
the 6
> > pin
> > > > > > multiplug so check this first using the test:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Put your multimeter to volts. Connect the red cable of
> > meter
> > > > to
> > > > > > > jump start post. Use black lead to check for earth at 
ecu
> > > > MULTI
> > > > > > PLUG, meter
> > > > > > > should read battery voltage."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Check continuity of all wires from the idle speed ecu 
plug.
> > > > > > > Especially those to the idle speed motor.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "so how do i check the input from the coil/distibuter
> > (which
> > > i
> > > > > > assume
> > > > > > > gives the rpm signal (also runs the rev counter 
input?)"
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Said this in last message
> > > > > > > "You can check for continuity using the resistance 
setting
> > on
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > multimeter and check for wire continuity between the
> > switched
> > > > > side
> > > > > > > of the coil to the ecu plug, (remove the ecu first). If
> > there
> > > > is
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > suppressor, temporarily disconnect it in case this has
> > gone
> > > > bad."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Your test on continuity test through the diode would 
give
> > a
> > > > > > result dependant on the positive feed from your 
multimeter
> > for
> > > > the
> > > > > > continuity test. This will be blocked or passed through 
(in
> > > > > laymans
> > > > > > terms) due to the characteristic of the diode itself, 
hence
> > the
> > > > > > diode test.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Put the diode back in the circuit and do the test as 
in my
> > > > > > previous message
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Put your multimeter to volts. Connect the red cable of
> > meter
> > > > to
> > > > > > > jump start post. Use black lead to check for throttle
> > switch
> > > > > input
> > > > > > (AT THE ECU MULTIPLUG) meter should read battery voltage
> > with
> > > > > > throttle closed (switch
> > > > > > > operated) and no voltage with throttle open."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Do you have a circuit diagram of the idle speed ecu ?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > NickT.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > blackaddertoo wrote:
> > > > > > > hi Nick
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > thanx for the post...i know a long one but here hoes..
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > earth check with continuity tester from screw into 
base to
> > > car
> > > > > > body,
> > > > > > > to ecu multiplug
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > connected test light to main power ecu 
multiplug...lights
> > > with
> > > > > > > ignition each time (tested fuse-ok)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > check throttle switch input before/after diode, 
continuity
> > > > > before
> > > > > > > (with earth) non afterbut reads about 700 on doide 
test on
> > > > meter
> > > > > > > from your comment this looks about right but removed 
diode
> > > > > > > completely to test further. does not activate 
continuity
> > > > buzzer
> > > > > on
> > > > > > > positive or neg current...thought it should.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > have not checked coil to ecu or ecu plug to idle plug
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > thermister has been replaced a couple of weeks 
ago...reads
> > > > about
> > > > > > > 1800 ohms cold so that is ok i think.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > tried earthing the throttle input and starting the
> > car....car
> > > > > did
> > > > > > > the same...runs for 15 secs then chugs and dies.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > car idles ok (1500rpm) with brass screws adjusted so i
> > assume
> > > > co
> > > > > > > adjustment is ok otherwise it would not run?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > so how do i check the input from the coil/distibuter
> > (which i
> > > > > > assume
> > > > > > > gives the rpm signal (also runs the rev counter input?)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > i'm running out of things to test but surely my 
problems
> > are
> > > > > here
> > > > > > > somewhere.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Regards
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Steve
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In doc-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Nick Tomlinson
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > How did you check the earth connection at the ecu 
multi
> > > plug?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Have you checked for a switched connected at the ecu
> > > > multiplug
> > > > > > > from the throttle switch?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Put your multimeter to volts. Connect the red cable 
of
> > > meter
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > jump start post. Use black lead to check for earth at 
ecu,
> > > > meter
> > > > > > > should read battery voltage.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Put your multimeter to volts. Connect the red cable 
of
> > > meter
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > jump start post. Use black lead to check for throttle
> > switch
> > > > > > input,
> > > > > > > meter should read battery voltage with throttle closed
> > > (switch
> > > > > > > operated) and no voltage with throttle open.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > With the ECU plugged in, check the multiplug that 
goes
> > to
> > > > the
> > > > > > > idle speed motor, the centre pin should have 12v on it
> > (with
> > > > key
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > ignition and tuned to position 2) continuously. The ecu
> > > > > > momentarily
> > > > > > > earths the outer pins to open and close the motor.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You can check for continuity using the resistance
> > setting
> > > on
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > multimeter and check for wire continuity between the
> > switched
> > > > > side
> > > > > > > of the coil to the ecu plug, (remove the ecu first). If
> > there
> > > > is
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > suppressor, temporarily disconnect it in case this has
> > gone
> > > > bad.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The white lead from the distributor to the ecu is 
from
> > the
> > > > > > > negatively switched side of the coil. If this was short
> > then
> > > > the
> > > > > > car
> > > > > > > would not run at all.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The Diode should be tested using diode function on 
the
> > > > > > > multimeter ideally not resistance.
> > > > > > > > Reading should be between 500 and 800 with test leads
> > one
> > > > way
> > > > > > > round on the diode, and no reading (ie infinite) the 
other
> > > way
> > > > > > round.
> > > > > > > > The diode is there to stop feedback voltage going to
> > this
> > > > > > > circuit, as the throttle microswitch operates a couple 
of
> > > > other
> > > > > > > circuits too.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I would say from your resistance tests that this 
diode
> > > would
> > > > > > > appear to be open circuit.
> > > > > > > > Temporarily connect this wire to permanent earth for
> > idle
> > > > > > > testing purposes only. Does the car idle now?? If it 
does
> > > then
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > diode will need replacing. Note which way round the 
diode
> > is
> > > > > when
> > > > > > > you removed it and replace it with another the right 
way
> > > round.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I am presuming that you have check for wire 
continuity
> > > > between
> > > > > > > the idle speed motor multiplug and the idle speed ecu
> > > > multiplug.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Have you measured the thermister resistance?
> > > > > > > > Do this by using your multimeter on resistance and
> > connect
> > > > to
> > > > > > > the 2 pins on the idle speed ecu multiplug. If you get 
no
> > > > > reading
> > > > > > > (open circuit) then the connector to the thermistor
> > connector
> > > > > plug
> > > > > > > may have fallen off or the thermistor itself has gone 
bad.
> > > > > > > > If you get no resistance, you can make some short fly
> > leads
> > > > to
> > > > > > > enable the multiplug to be connected to the ecu by 2 
pins
> > (on
> > > > > the
> > > > > > 4
> > > > > > > pin block) and the thermistor ecu inputs to a 10 kilo 
ohm
> > > > > resistor
> > > > > > > to simulate the thermistor. If the car now idles then 
this
> > is
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > problem.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > NIckT.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > blackaddertoo wrote:
> > > > > > > > Hi all
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > an update on my idle problems
> > > > > > > > idle ecu and idle motor checked and working by 
martin at
> > > > DMUK.
> > > > > > > > now removed motor, blocked pipes and adjusted
> > screws...car
> > > > > idle
> > > > > > ok
> > > > > > > > at 1500 rpm.
> > > > > > > > checked power to ecu ok at plug, checked switch ok at
> > > engine
> > > > > but
> > > > > > > > diode reads no resistance either polarity. (should 
it?)
> > n
> > > > > moved
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > further testing.
> > > > > > > > checked ground connection at ecu - Ok.
> > > > > > > > put Eecu and motor back in, shorted the
> > diode/microswitch
> > > > > input
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > earth...car idle 30 second then dies. exactly the 
same
> > > > problem.
> > > > > > > > removed diode short...idle 30 secs then dies.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > so i am left to check the input from the distributor
> > > (should
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > car
> > > > > > > > idle if this is dead and hence the ecu does not know
> > engine
> > > > > > > speed??)
> > > > > > > > and if the leads from the ecu to motor are OK.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > if i put a test light on the connector at engine end 
and
> > > > > switch
> > > > > > > > ignition, should there be a short positive signal on 
the
> > > one
> > > > > (to
> > > > > > > > either close the motor or open?)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > then remove the microswith...do the same and the 
other
> > lead
> > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > go positive.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > that is correct is it not, middle lead to motor is
> > ground
> > > > and
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > other run motor positive one way and positive the 
other
> > to
> > > > > close
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > air valve??.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanx for reading this!! and sorry to bore you. i am
> > > > > determined
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > resolve this (and enjoy it really!!)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
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> > > > > > > > ---------------------------------
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now.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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