Re: [DML] Wishbone LCA's

["content22207" <brobertson@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]

The LCA is very narrow (and it gets even narrower where the pivot bolt passes through). It is inherently wiggly fore/aft. You need something to hold it in place or the damn thing will simply fold up underneath the car. Hence the OEM swaybar design (more genius Lotus engineering -- make a sway bar try to do something swaybars were never intended to do).

Ed's brackets go a very long way towards making the narrow LCA into a U shaped component, akin to the upper control arm. Are they still minimally compliant fore/aft? Yes, of course. Is that compliance even material? No, especially given the polyurethance material the bushings are made from.

We've had this discussion before. You don't like Ed's brackets because they have bushings at the LCA interface. Your objection reminds me of an accountant who refuses to close the books simply because his accounts are one or two pennies off -- the effect is so minimal that the objection is laughable. You are objecting on principle alone, not on any real world effect.

Moreover, you and the rip-the-swaybar-mounts-off crowd need to get your objections straight. Either Ed's brackets are so ineffective that the swaybar mounts aren't even a concern, or Ed's brackets are so effective that the swaybar will rip itself off the crumple extension the first time the LCA moves up & down.

Bill Robertson
#5939


--- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Martin Gutkowski" <martin@...> wrote:
>
> No, you've misread my post. As usual.
> 
>  I am suggesting the ARB's triangulation duties be entirely eliminated.
> 
> Martin
> 
> Sent from my BlackBerry®
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "content22207" <brobertson@...>
> Sender: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 13:35:31 
> To: <dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Reply-To: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [DML] Wishbone LCA's
> 
> My god, if you are trying to make a wishbone out of the swaybar, that is even less of a wishbone than Ed brackets! 
> 
> As already mentioned, our swaybar, by virtue of its 45 degree bends, is extremely flexible fore/aft. That is the reason the stock LCA moves so far backwards during hard braking. Doesn't matter where you put the front bushings -- the problem is the bar itself.
> 
> A true wishbone would be a solid U shaped piece of metal, like this: http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/377059_271400929571831_100001057778755_832022_999504283_n.jpg
> Speaking of which: why doesn't anybody ever give Rob a hard time about his swaybar ripping his front mounts off? If these truly are Mike Loasby's arms left over from Dunmurry, then inherent flexibility of the swaybar has been proven with nearly 3 decades of Rob's road testing!
> 
> Compare a DeLorean swaybar to a Lotus swaybar. Lotus' swaybars have a 90 degree bend, which makes them extremely inflexible fore/aft. Our swaybars are only halfway removed from a simple piece of 1" round bar, ie: very flexible lengthwise under the forces of a car.
> 
> Perhaps it is time for you to lighten up on Ed's backets. They are closer to a wishbone than what you are suggesting.
> 
> Bill Robertson
> #5939
> 
> 
> 
> --- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Martin Gutkowski" <martin@> wrote:
> >
> > Where did I say anything about cutting anything in half?
> > 
> > The axis of rotation of the ARB is higher than the LCA main pivot axis. As long as the point where the ARB joins the LCA remains below the axis of the ARB, the LCA will be pushed back as the suspension compresses. Therefore eliminate the front bush and triangulate the lower arm along the main pivot axis and you have a true wishbone.
> > 
> > Martin
> > Sent from my BlackBerry®
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: "content22207" <brobertson@>
> > Sender: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 22:23:20 
> > To: <dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Reply-To: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: Re: [DML] Wishbone LCA's
> > 
> > I really don't want to drive around with either my bushings cut in half, or the brackets themselves cut in half -- which were you proposing eliminating?
> > 
> > Bill Robertson
> > #5939
> > 
> > --- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Martin Gutkowski" <martin@> wrote:
> > >
> > > No, you really don't understand the point.
> > > 
> > > Martin
> > > 
> > > Sent from my BlackBerry®
> > > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: "content22207" <brobertson@>
> > > Sender: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 22:14:44 
> > > To: <dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > Reply-To: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: Re: [DML] Wishbone LCA's
> > > 
> > > Or simply turn them around backwards....
> > > 
> > > Bill Robertson
> > > #5939
> > > 
> > > --- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Martin Gutkowski" <martin@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > The Esprit evolved through many iterations and those contemporary to the DeLorean were the same but later units definitely were as you describe. The same can be achieved with the DeLorean by eliminating the front of the two LCA-ARB bushes
> > > > 
> > > > Martin
> > > >  
> > > > Sent from my BlackBerry®
> > > > 
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Marc Levy <malevy_nj@>
> > > > Sender: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 14:41:02 
> > > > To: <dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > Reply-To: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > Subject: [DML] Wishbone LCA's
> > > > 
> > > > I just recently had a conversation with a Lotus owner about this, and hand an "ah-ha" moment when he said the ARB is just pushed in to the bushing on the Esprit design.  There is no nut on the back end to lock it in to the LCA..  
> > > > 
> > > > So, if that is true, the ARB in the lotus application is free to travel forward/aft inside the LCA..  eliminating the problem that Mike Loasby talked about.  
> > > > 
> > > > Clearly, the nut and front collar is needed in the DeLorean application because that is all that keeps the LCA from collapsing under the car.  It makes me wonder, can Ed's brackets keep the LCA in place if the nut on the end of the ARB was left off??   I know *I* would not try it on my car, and for sure would not propose that anyone else try it...  
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > --- On Sun, 3/11/12, Martin Gutkowski <martin@> wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > I was referring to your frame
> > > > > extension modification as heath-robinson, not Ed's brackets
> > > > > which are a professionally produced product.
> > > > > 
> > > > > However in *my* professional opinion, the design is flawed.
> > > > > If you're going to make the LCA's act as wishbones, make
> > > > > them wishbones. Eliminate all fore/aft movement including
> > > > > that generated by the ARB. Simples.
> > > > > 
> > > > > I have a concept in my head, I have started come CAD models
> > > > > but I'm too busy making a living to spend much time on it at
> > > > > present
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
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> > > 
> > > 
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> 
> 
> 
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