--- In DMCForum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "timnagin" <timnagin@...> wrote: > > I agree with your first statement, but it seems a lot of people do not. I > hear these people talking about the global warming crisis and they state > over and over that "so many scientists agree, so it must be true." Science > is not consensus. Anyone who believes it is does not understand science. Consensus does not make good science, but good science does make consensus. > You knowing those people does not make your decisions any more credible, or > correct for that matter. Their study of this also does not make it without > fallacy. If other people are reporting the opposite, based on the same > research, I ask again - which one is correct? We do not know. It is absolutely true that there is a LOT about atmospheric science and climate change that we don't know, and a LOT of factors flying around up there that cause these kinds of changes. Predictions are called "predictions" because they are not known, but there is a science behind it; it's not just guesswork. I mentioned the people I know in the science of it to show that I am not basing my opinion on the media or some movie. > I have quite a bit of education in the sciences as well and can read and > understand this information on my own. My stating that and proving I can > does not make my decision any more correct either. I guess I haven't made this point very clear: I'm not trying to convince anyone of a viewpoint on global warming (or alternate energy, or E85, or the future of fossil fuels)... All I'm trying to do now is defend the fact that I have done the research you're advocating, and I've made up my mind. Can we agree on that? Regards, Jon Heese > From: DMCForum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:DMCForum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf > Of jonheese > Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 1:37 AM > To: DMCForum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: [DMCForum] Re: Global Warming Swindle > > > > Clearly, only a fool would make a decision on a scientific matter > based on a public opinion poll. > > Fundamentally, the number of people that believe a theory is > irrelevant to its veracity. > > I believe what I believe because I've been involved in the science. I > have read the scientific literature in climate science journals, I > have friends who work on ship in the arctic circle 7 months a year, > doing research on climate change for the U.S. and Canadian > governments, I've had hour-long discussions with professors and > scientists who have studied the effects of anthropogenic atmospheric > carbon and the resulting climate change, my brother-in-law is a > chemical engineer getting his doctorate in climatology at the > University of Houston... > > I would never tell you "Trust me", because I know you want to find out > for yourself. But I don't have any magic door to the truth. > > Regards, > Jon Heese > > --- In DMCForum@yahoogroup <mailto:DMCForum%40yahoogroups.com> s.com, > "timnagin" <timnagin@> wrote: > > > > Yet, people are saying the same thing about both sides of the issue. > Again, > > which one is correct? The truth is, we do not absolutely know. > Both sides > > could be termed propaganda. > > > > > > > > If we have more people saying one side is true does that make that side > > true? No. Here is an analogy - there are one hundred people > standing in a > > room. Ninety nine of those people say the moon is made of green cheese. > > One does not agree. That does not mean the moon is made of green > cheese. > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: DMCForum@yahoogroup <mailto:DMCForum%40yahoogroups.com> s.com > [mailto:DMCForum@yahoogroup <mailto:DMCForum%40yahoogroups.com> s.com] On > Behalf > > Of jonheese > > Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 12:59 AM > > To: DMCForum@yahoogroup <mailto:DMCForum%40yahoogroups.com> s.com > > Subject: [DMCForum] Re: Global Warming Swindle > > > > > > > > Read the analyses, then say that. > > > > This is not a matter of people saying, "Nuh-uh! I think it's this!" > > We're talking about bodies of scientists rejecting the theories > > presented, scientists interviewed in the film denouncing the view of > > the film and saying their interviews were twisted around to put words > > in their mouths, sources of graphs used in the film shown to be total > > hogwash based on an analysis of the actual source graph, etc.. > > > > It really is a piece of propaganda, pure and simple. > > > > Regards, > > Jon Heese > > > > --- In DMCForum@yahoogroup <mailto:DMCForum%40yahoogroups.com> s.com, > > "jonheese" <jonheese@> wrote: > > > > > > --- In DMCForum@yahoogroup <mailto:DMCForum%40yahoogroups.com> s.com, > > "timnagin" <timnagin@> wrote: > > > > I haven't finished watching it yet. Might those people who denounce > > > it be > > > > of the mindset we are in a crisis? :-) Maybe they should have used a > > > > really slick, well-known public servant so it would have been > believed > > > > without checking the facts. > > > > > > I'm only three-quarters of the way through it yet as well, but I've > > > already counted more glaring inaccuracies and faulty logic than I can > > > even remember without writing them down... > > > > > > If you read through the pages I posted links for, you'll see that the > > > logic used to denounce the viewpoints of the film is not based on the > > > mindset of the people doing the arguing. It shows that some of the > > > tactics used by the film were dirty tricks, not facts. At least a few > > > of the "scientists" interviewed are not experts in the field they are > > > discussing, or have opinions and theories that are presented as proven > > > fact, when they have not been published or peer-reviewed. > > > > > > In addition, I happen to know Tim Ball personally, and he is > > > bankrolled by petroleum companies (a simply Google search will show > > > many source of these ties). He used to be a faculty member (not a > > > professor) in the geography department at the University of Winnipeg, > > > but now he tours the country making millions telling people what they > > > want to hear. The film credits him as a Professor from the Department > > > of Climatology (which doesn't even exist). > > > > > > In addition, the film did not mention that there has be NO science in > > > the peer-reviewed scientific journals refuting anthropogenic global > > > warming: > > > > > > http://www.sciencem > > <http://www.sciencem > <http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/306/5702/1686> > ag.org/cgi/content/full/306/5702/1686> > > ag.org/cgi/content/full/306/5702/1686 > > > > > > > "The funny thing is that this film can be shown to have done almost > > > all of > > > > the things it claims its opponents did to skew the data in the their > > > favor, > > > > plus a few more..." > > > > > > > > Given this, which is why I stated previously I will not blatantly > > > believe > > > > either side, which side is correct? Why would anyone adhere to one > > > side or > > > > the other without trying to find all of the facts? I have said it > > > so many > > > > times now it has almost lost all meaning to me, but information is > > > so easy > > > > to find now, why don't more people do it? > > > > > > Yeah, it is more and more difficult for the layperson to get real, > > > true, unmolested data and analysis on this topic. Both sides have > > > been politicized and the waters have been muddied to the point where > > > it's easy not to know which side to trust. > > > > > > I don't have an answer for you. You just have to do your due > > > diligence and research what's being published. > > > > > > >>Think, research, think some more, then believe. > > > > > > > > Believe what? > > > > > > Whatever you determine is right. > > > > > > Would "decide" have been a better word? > > > > > > Regards, > > > Jon Heese > > > > > > > From: DMCForum@yahoogroup <mailto:DMCForum%40yahoogroups.com> s.com > > [mailto:DMCForum@yahoogroup <mailto:DMCForum%40yahoogroups.com> > s.com] On > > > Behalf > > > > Of jonheese > > > > Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 12:13 AM > > > > To: DMCForum@yahoogroup <mailto:DMCForum%40yahoogroups.com> s.com > > > > Subject: [DMCForum] Re: Global Warming Swindle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ah yes, I remember this program now... I just started watching > it and > > > > I immediately recognized the propaganda from a report I read earlier > > > > this year on it. > > > > > > > > It is FULL of scientific holes, falsehoods and misrepresentations. > > > > See here for a full treatment of the subject: > > > > > > > > http://en.wikipedia > > > > <http://en.wikipedia > > <http://en.wikipedia > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Global_Warming_Swindle> > .org/wiki/The_Great_Global_Warming_Swindle> > > .org/wiki/The_Great_Global_Warming_Swindle> > > > > .org/wiki/The_Great_Global_Warming_Swindle > > > > > > > > Make sure you check out the sections "Reactions from scientists", > > > > "Carl Wunsch Controversy" (where the MIT professor interviews in the > > > > film claims to have been misled and taken out of context to make it > > > > sound like he said the opposite of what he actually said), and > > > > "Contributors to the programme", (where you can see that Tim Ball, > > > > that ass-clown, is NOT a professor of ANYTHING at ANY university, as > > > > he claimed in the film). > > > > > > > > The film does have its bits of truth, but it was really badly > > > > put-together, as anyone with a climate science background could > > > > plainly see. > > > > > > > > Here's a quick play-by-play of all the holes and controversy: > > > > http://www.desmogbl > > > > <http://www.desmogbl > > <http://www.desmogbl > <http://www.desmogblog.com/a-global-warming-swindle-play-by-play> > og.com/a-global-warming-swindle-play-by-play> > > og.com/a-global-warming-swindle-play-by-play> > > > > og.com/a-global-warming-swindle-play-by-play > > > > > > > > Here's another well-written analysis: > > > > http://climatedenia > > > > > > > > > <http://climatedenia > > > <http://climatedenia > <http://climatedenial.org/2007/05/01/why-was-the-great-global-warming-swindl > > l.org/2007/05/01/why-was-the-great-global-warming-swindl > > > l.org/2007/05/01/why-was-the-great-global-warming-swindl > > > > e-so-persuasive/> > > > > > > l.org/2007/05/01/why-was-the-great-global-warming-swindle-so-persuasive/ > > > > > > > > The funny thing is that this film can be shown to have done > almost all > > > > of the things it claims its opponents did to skew the data in the > > > > their favor, plus a few more... > > > > > > > > Think, research, think some more, then believe. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Jon Heese > > > > > > > > --- In DMCForum@yahoogroup <mailto:DMCForum%40yahoogroups.com> > s.com, > > > > "jonheese" <jonheese@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > For anyone interested in this program, it can be downloaded here: > > > > > > > > > > http://jonheese. > > > > <http://jonheese. > > <http://jonheese. > <http://jonheese.com/video/The.Great.Global.Warming.Swindle.avi> > com/video/The.Great.Global.Warming.Swindle.avi> > > com/video/The.Great.Global.Warming.Swindle.avi> > > > > com/video/The.Great.Global.Warming.Swindle.avi (~698MB) > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Jon Heese > > > > > > > > > > --- In DMCForum@yahoogroup <mailto:DMCForum%40yahoogroups.com> > > s.com, > > > > "jonheese" <jonheese@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Cool concept, I'd really like to see that. I'm, *ahem*, > > > obtaining the > > > > > > movie right now, and I'll post a link to it when I get it. > > > > > > > > > > > > The comments on that site about incoming comments being 6 to > 1 in > > > > > > favor of its viewpoints are hardly surprising. No one really > likes > > > > > > change, and in the midst of all the global warming nutcases > > > screaming > > > > > > about CO2 and the greenhouse effect, it's no wonder people > get all > > > > > > excited and encouraging when a scientific-looking source tells > > them > > > > > > that their cars are not killing the planet. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's never been a mystery or a secret (not to me, at least) that > > > > > > man-made greenhouse gases are in the minority when compared > to the > > > > > > naturally-occurring variety. The more compelling fact is the > > rate of > > > > > > change from these sources. > > > > > > > > > > > > Volcanoes aren't spewing any more CO2 than they did 10,000 years > > > ago, > > > > > > but there are a good amount more people and animals (think: > > > livestock) > > > > > > exhaling, farting and burning hydrocarbons. The science > behind the > > > > > > global greenhouse effect is solid. Whether or not it is the > reason > > > > > > for the recent global warming trend, I don't know for sure. > > > > > > > > > > > > What I do know is that I will not stick my head in the sand and > > > > > > pretend that everything is okay. At least not until I am > > > convinced by > > > > > > scientific research that we are fine the way we're going. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Jon Heese > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In DMCForum@yahoogroup <mailto:DMCForum%40yahoogroups.com> > > > s.com, > > > > Martin Gutkowski <martin@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Early this year I had my entire viewpoint changed by a > single TV > > > > show > > > > > > > shown on Channel 4 here in the UK. I'm not someone who is > easily > > > > > swayed > > > > > > > on something I thought I knew about - but in the space of 90 > > > > > minutes, I > > > > > > > felt like I'd had my eyes opened. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I seriously suggest you guys buy the DVD when it comes out, or > > > > > *cough* > > > > > > > maybe see if there're any torrents out there. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.greatglo > > <http://www.greatglo <http://www.greatglo > <http://www.greatglobalwarmingswindle.co.uk/> balwarmingswindle.co.uk/> > > balwarmingswindle.co.uk/> > > > > balwarmingswindle.co.uk/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In my own nutshell, it points out really clearly that CO2 is > > > NOT a > > > > > > > pollutant, nor does increasing levels of CO2 cause an > > increase in > > > > > > global > > > > > > > temperatures; it's *the other way around* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My favourite stat they showed was a very simple pie-chart > > > > showing the > > > > > > > proportions of CO2 emitted by animals (you, me, the cat next > > > > > door), the > > > > > > > burning of fossil fuels and VOLCANOES. Did you know that > > volcanoes > > > > > are > > > > > > > responsible for over a quarter of co2 emissions vs less > than 10% > > > > for > > > > > > > fossil fuel burning? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, having watched the program makes for some very > > interesting > > > > > > debates! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DMCForum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DMCForum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:DMCForum-digest@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx mailto:DMCForum-fullfeatured@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: DMCForum-unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/