RE: [DMCForum] CENSORSHIP

["timnagin" <timnagin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Jon,

There really is no censorship and nothing has really changed.  The only
addition is that if someone gets out of hand there are now consequences for
doing so.  This applies to everyone, including the moderators.

Based on my off-list conversations with Marc, at literally forty plus emails
and six hours, I feel he does believe we tried to push him out.  I can
assure everyone that is simply not the case.  I think Marc has a lot to
offer the community and have told him so.

There were several off-list discussions about these changes and Marc agreed
to adhere to the rules even though he did not agree with them.  He obviously
did not and action was taken; the very action he agreed to abide by.

There was a mistake made while trying to only ban him from posting, and he
would have had access to all other aspects of the group, but he was removed
from the list in error.  I spent some time last night trying to get it
corrected and sent him an invitation.  He acknowledging receiving the
invitation but stated he would not rejoin the list unless it went back to
how it was.

Marc has an open invitation and can re-join at any time but he, like the
rest of us, have to play by the rules.  The rules, I think, are extremely
lax no matter how you look at it.  As I stated before, no group settings
have been changed at all so anyone can really post anything they want but we
need to moderate ourselves.

For what it's worth I am a political junkie but I voted not to have it on
this list.  If the majority had voted to keep politics on here then I would
be joining in that as well, or would leave the group.

I hope that makes sense and if you, or anyone, have any questions please let
me know.

Greg


-----Original Message-----
From: DMCForum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:DMCForum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of Jon Heese
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 9:22 PM
To: DMCForum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [DMCForum] CENSORSHIP

I've listened to the viewpoints of those in favor of the new system with 
as open of a mind as I can have, but still can't convince myself that 
the whole change doesn't betray the initial impetus behind the group's 
establishment.

I honestly think that the "many" that Ryan references below don't 
actually outweigh the "few" by as much as some might have us believe.  I 
think the polls on the subject were incomplete at best, as they did not 
address by what rules the offense would be identified (i.e. what, 
specifically, counts as political, religious?) or by whom it would be 
identified as such.  Incidentally, they did not mention the creation of 
a body of "moderators" with administrative control over the group members.

I applaud the moderators for making all administrative actions public, 
but it's ironic how it only seems to underscore the pettiness of the 
whole process.

I had an off-list discussion with Dave about the subject before the 
recent administrative change, and he seemed to be cooperative and to 
want to resolve the matter intelligently.  I have not talked directly to 
Ryan or Greg about anything, but you both seem very smart and logical. 
I'm just not sure what makes the three of you so intolerant of what you 
don't like to hear to the point of whining, and then near-despotic 
control in the guise of a mandate from the majority.  It's cliche, but I 
believe in the whole "catching more flies with honey" adage, and this 
moderator situation smells like a big steaming bowl of vinegar to me.

Your almost immediate banning of Marc (for a violation not addressed in 
the polls, by the way) *seemed* very transparent and self-serving.  I'm 
not claiming any foul play here, I do think it smells a little funny, 
for what I think are obvious reasons.

Really, I think what happens here on this forum affects us all very 
little in the end.  I happen to enjoy this particular discussion because 
it makes me think hard about the politics of the group and what I 
believe to be its best strategy for self-government.  Thank you all for 
letting me opine and for responding civilly.  I welcome your thoughts.

Regards,
Jon Heese

Ryan Wright wrote:
> On 10/5/05, timnagin <timnagin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> 
>>For example, when several people on the list start screaming back
>>at someone to please stop and they don't, that is probably past the point.
> 
> 
> This is, basically, why we are now enforcing a few rules around here.
> To ensure the few don't ruin it for the many. This is also why we've
> chosen to make moderator actions public. Not to embarass individuals
> or "flex our muscle", but to ensure we ourselves don't ruin it for the
> many. It holds us to some level of accountability.
> 
> -Ryan

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