Good grief -- everytime I post ANYTHING creates a controversy... Toby vs Walt/Martin is moot point. Walt/Martin bolts weren't available when Toby's were on the market. Now that they are, Toby's out of hardware business. Whichever you use depends on when you were/will be buying. BTW: finish on Toby's bolts is hidden inside frame/trailing arm. Can't even see head without jacking up car (did anyone notice his name cast into it?). Best you'll see is half inch or so of thread. Could be purple for all I care -- as long as is rust resistant. You had SEDOC price of $45 or so on Walt/Martin TAB's (does Martin know you did that, or have I just created ANOTHER controversy?). Toby (Darryl Tinnerstet) charged me $66. That's how I calculated $20 net "splurge". Bill Robertson #5939 >--- In DMCForum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Walter Coe" <Whalt@xxxx> wrote: > > So which is better? Toby TAB or Walt TAB? > > Strength-wise they should be identical since they are made from the same > Inconel 718 alloy. > > Toby-TABs are more cool looking since they have a bright sand-blasted finish > and 12 point head. But the head can make them a pain in the ass to install > if you don't have a 12 point offset wrench. If you want jam nuts, Toby says > to go buy them at your local hardware. For whatever reason, Toby did not > have his bolts threaded to OEM metric dimensions. I really don't like the > nuts that he uses because they are not of the nylock variety. Instead one > side of the nut has purposely damaged threads which then damages the threads > on the bolts as you tighten them. The purpose, of course, is to make sure > that they fit tight enough so that they don't come loose on their own. But > as I tightened a Toby-TAB, I watched a piece of it extrude into a long piece > of Inconel wire as the purposely damaged nut scraped part of the thread off. > I really hated seeing this happen to a bolt that someone just paid a lot of > money for. > > Walt-TABs are black & ugly but are more practical and costs less. They are > made to metric specs, so they install and fit like the original bolts. They > come with jam nuts and nylock nuts included. And most importantly, > Walt-TABs are still available! > > Since Walt-TABs were commissioned at mine and Martin Gutkowski's request, we > talked extensively with the manufacture to make the best bolts. The only > dimension that we changed from OEM is that the shank on Walt-TABs are 95mm > whereas the shank on OEM TABs are 86mm and Toby-TABs are 100mm. The reason > for making the shank longer is that we wanted to be sure that the trailing > arm didn't bear any load on a threaded portion of the TAB. Toby used a > similar approach but maybe went too far (really a matter of opinion.) His > 100mm shanks can be too long in some applications (depending on how many > wheel alignment shims your particular car needs). So he provides extra > washers to use as spacers to make up the difference. For Martin and I it > was a close call deciding on what the optimum shank length should be. We > chose 95mm because that is short enough to not require extra washers and yet > long enough so that very few if any threads are load-bearing. We were > concerned of the possibility that a future mechanic doing a rear wheel > alignment might need to remove some shims and then not know that additional > spacer washers are needed because a Toby-TAB shank is too long. So we made > sure that Walt-TAB shanks are just long enough. They are 9mm longer than > OEM TABs but 5mm shorter than Toby-TABs. Have I rambled on long enough > already? > > And for you concours nuts, the black finish on Walt-TABs can be cleaned off > to make them look OEM. Toby-TABs look noticeably different. Cool, but > different. > > > Based on 20,000 mile condition of my factory original 10.9's would > suspect that mere 12.9's would probably be fine as long as they're > changed periodically, > > Uh, no. I have done TABs on 5 DeLoreans to date (actually crawling under > the car and doing the work myself, not just selling the bolts). Of these 5 > cars, only one had TABs that weren't bent, and those were relatively new > TABs installed by PJ Grady. I haven't tried to keep "tabs" on how many > people find bent ones, but there are a lot of bent ones. The guy selling > the 12.9 bolts is John Hervey. Yeah, 12.9 should be stronger than 10.9, but > I have questions. After he buys these bolts then he has them replated. But > replating a bolt changes its hardness. I asked him about this, and he said > that he has them retempered after he has them replated. So why start with > an off-the-shelf bolt and then have it replated and retempered because the > manufacturer went cheap on the original plating? Did they go cheap on > anything else? Like are the threads rolled or cut? This is critical to how > strong the bolt really is. How long is the shank and how did you choose > that length? Has the hardness of the bolts been verified? > > I have all the technical certificates for the Walt-TABs and will get copies > posted online soon. > > > Net splurge was only $20 (which included shipping BTW). > > Bill, how the hell did you bag a set of Toby-TABs for only $20? The going > rate while they were available was $66/set. > > Walt Yahoo! 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