On 7/11/06, Dave Stragand <dave.stragand@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > You state that everyone else who runs a forum or mailing list is "power > hungry", yet you want to consolidate everything under your control? =) I didn't state that "everyone" who runs a forum is power hungry. Nor did I ever state I want to consolidate anything under MY control. I don't want control of it. I just want it to exist for the simple fact that I hate checking half a dozen different forums - so I don't, and I miss out on a lot of happenings. I've said I'd be willing to start it, pay for the hosting, pay for the software, etc, but again, that's just me wanting to have a better DeLorean resource available. If I started a forum I'd dole out moderator responsibilities to others. I'm not trying to be anybody's dictator. I don't want that job. > Seriously, Ryan, you have stated multiple times that you don't like the > email-based community concept, and that you prefer a web interface. > That is perfectly fine; everyone has his/her preference. That's > important to remember. You state, "Everyone would have to agree to shut > down and launch a single new system." But why? Without that, any new forum will simply splinter the community further. > I personally never read the various forums. (I actually RUN a huge > forum for 1955-1961 MoPars... I have over 1,700 users... 57,000 posts... > and I hardly ever read it. MY preference is email. I run BOTH a > mailing list and a forum because some people prefer one, and some prefer > the other. That will likely never change.) I don't mean to offend, but 1,700 users is not a huge forum. It's a nice forum, I'm sure, but it's not huge. Some of the aquarium and Home Theater forums I visit have in excess of 40,000 users. Those are huge forums. However, on the concept of email vs. web based, I've been saying all along that you can have it both ways. Modern web based forums allow users to subscribe to entire sections (or the entire forum, if they wish). It's virtually identical to an email based system. The primary reasons I harp about web based forums are (1) The different sections for discussion topics; and (2) The ability for moderators to quickly and easily move topics between sections when it becomes necessary to do so. Not to mention the fast and efficient searching, etc. However, I don't actually visit the DMC web based forums because they don't have a large following. This is not because people necessarily prefer email lists, but rather because the DML has the critical following of people. Therefore, I stick with the DML like virtually everyone else. > I must be really tired or something, because I actually agree with Marc > - but he's right - 'build it, and they will come'. Saying that it can > be done is one thing; implementing it is another. I have never heard > anyone else with the opinion that there must be only one forum/list, and > frankly, getting the support of "all forum owners and moderators" will > likely not happen any more than having a consolidation of all DMC web > sites under one domain name, or all local clubs under one national > organization. But, by all means, you are welcome and encouraged to try. See, I'm not actually campaigning for this. I'm just discussing it. The topic was brought up by someone else and I tossed in my opinion (yet again). So, don't think I'm going out and trying to make this happen - I'm not. I'm merely saying, "It would be nice." That said, I would step up to the plate, put my money (and time) where my mouth is and do the legwork on this if I thought it had a chance in hell of succeeding. However, I don't think it does. You'd have to swing the DML - if you convinced that forum to move, your work would be, essentially, complete. > People have their 'hangouts', preferences, clubs, forums, and mailing > lists, and they all like or dislike them for their own independent > reasons. You know, I've found that this isn't necessarily the case here. We are a small enough community that there shouldn't be half a dozen different forums. A few thousand people at best - all consolidated under one roof, that's still a small forum. IMHO, the reason there are so many different groups is due to the DML's system of moderation. If I'm not mistaken, this was one of the first forums to splinter off. Why, because enough people were sick and tired of dealing with DML moderators. There is no consensus of moderation over there - your messages can be rejected at random depending on the mood of the particular moderator at the time. It's as if they tossed a bunch of people in there willy-nilly, never agreeing on some ground rules for post rejection. Not only that, there's the significant time delay in conversation. Tamir started the first web based forum that I know of, then DMCH launched one, now there's another. There are too many forums for such a small group of people. > Insisting that everyone needs to come together because -you- > don't like having to go to multiple places, ignores the needs and wants > of everyone else. You state, "Everyone would have to agree to shut down > and launch a single new system." That's a ridiculous statement. The needs and wants of everyone can be included in a single forum with multiple areas. The key is that the person who owns the forum itself not play dictator, but rather dole out topic areas to different folks for moderation, work with those people to ensure consistant moderation, and engage the community in defining rules, enforcement procedures, and in policing the moderators. The various subcategories could be structured to meet the needs of everyone quite easily. But, yes, everyone would have to agree to do this together. See below for more on this. > Build a better mousetrap, and the world will beat a path to your forum. > Implement it FIRST, then ask for folks to make the move. Trying to get > everyone to commit in advance to a unified forum that has not even been > built yet is never going to happen. That's just it - the world will not beat a path, but rather, the new forum will further splinter the community. How many forums have been created? Hell, DMCH themselves created a forum and even it hasn't been wildly successful. I had higher hopes there, but on the few occasions I posted questions, I didn't receive any useful responses. I hop onto the DML and my questions are answered. > You stated that you weren't going to do it without everyone agreeing in > advance to the change, but what have you shown those folks? Do you have > a site yet? No, you said you didn't want to put the time into it if no > one would come. No, that's not what I said. I don't mind putting the time and money into it. It's just time and money. Rather, I mind splintering the community. I won't do that. Nobody needs me to put a site up to demonstrate it. Everybody knows exactly how a web based system works and what it looks ilke. Putting up a demonstration site will accomplish nothing. > Well, that's the same reason no one will agree to a > move in advance. There are literally THOUSANDS of hours invested in the > current forums, mailing lists, web sites, etc. No rational person would > ever consider throwing away all of the work that has gone into these > entities over the last 10 years simply because someone shows up and > says, "your stuff isn't any good, mine will be better, so give yours up > and you will see - but I won't even start mine until you give yours up.' For crying out loud, Dave, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying we unify the people running these various lists and build a new system together. It's not "my" system. I don't want to run the damn thing. I just want to consolidate this ridiculous quantity of forums. You're painting me as a demanding child. "I want it my way! Mine, mine, mine!" This isn't the case here at all. I want unification in communications. I don't care how it happens, only that it happens. The only way I see to get it done is: 1. Web/email hybrid system. 2. Agreement by forum owners to shut down when the new system is launched. 3. Active input from current forum owners and the community for site development; a forum owned, collectively, by many people. Basically, pull the community together, agree on a new standard, and implement it as a team. > You have to be reasonable, you have to have some experience in dealing > with the technical, political, and personal, and you have to have a real > site, not just an idea. Stop patronizing me. I've mitigated and negotiated disputes between parties with a hell of a lot more at stake than this. I don't want your condescension and I don't need it. The simple fact is if people would come to the table and talk, we could, collectively, make a much better community for DeLorean enthusiasts. The splintering of this community into half a dozen forums sucks and there are a lot more people than myself who feel that way. > Do your best, enlist the help of others, and go build the best D site > the world has ever seen, and it very well might become 'the one'. > However, you are going to have to invest an enormous amount of your own > time FIRST before asking for commitments from others, and there will > never be any guarantees. That's what the rest of us have faced when > building our respective communities - you are going to have to do the > same if you ever expect to be taken seriously. Horse shit. People in this community won't be attracted by features or flashiness. It is the critical mass of users that makes the difference. This will never be done here by someone going off and "just doing it". Several have tried, all have more or less failed. Tamir's site is the closest to success by far. No; the support of the community and the current forum owners must be gained and a new system built together. Otherwise, it's just another idiot with yet another DeLorean forum. -Ryan ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Great things are happening at Yahoo! Groups. See the new email design. http://us.click.yahoo.com/TISQkA/hOaOAA/yQLSAA/HliolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DMCForum/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: DMCForum-unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/