Re: [DMCForum] Mistletoe belt buckles, naked chicks and hummers...

[Jon Heese <dmcforum@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]

I was referring mainly to the article that Marc posted earlier about 
Bill O'Reilly and others complaining that commercial advertising moving 
from "Merry Christmas" to "Happy Holidays" is a snub to Christians.

I think it's a "can't see the forest for the trees" kind of a thing when 
people get things so backwards: in a commercial setting, "Merry 
Christmas" is much more exclusive and off-putting than "Happy Holidays", 
all faiths considered.  I suppose it still excludes those whose faith 
(or lack thereof) has no winter holiday, but at least it doesn't 
arrogantly presume that they prescribe to a single religion.

I hope you didn't think my response was directed at you, Chuck.  No hard 
feelings.  =)

As far as your last point goes, I'm going to try to answer without 
crossing the line of the Forum rules (as I interpret them):  I think 
keeping people from saying "Merry Christmas" as personal _expression_ is 
unconstitutional by the 1st amendment.  But that is a fine line: if, say 
hypothetically, a public school were to endorse Christianity by 
publishing or posting something with "Merry Christmas" on it, that would 
also be violating the 1st amendment rights of non-Christian students, 
and therefore would be unconstituional as well.  As far as I know, if a 
certain privately-owned store (or any other private establishment) 
doesn't want people wishing Merry Christmases, they are within their 
rights to ask that person to leave, or refuse them service, or whatever.

Regards,
Jon Heese

Chuck McKnight wrote:
> What do you mean by that last statement?  I have no problem with people saying "happy hollidays" if they want to.  What I do have a problem with is certain stores and schools etc. where you are not allowed to to say "merry Christmas".  That is just plain wrong.
>    
>   Chuck
> 
> Jon Heese <dmcforum@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>   Let me make sure I was clear with the point of my message earlier today:
> 
> Wishing someone a Merry Christmas is in the gray area when it comes to 
> being a "religious topic" on the Forum.  Claiming that Christmas is a 
> national holiday, and therefore universal to Americans is demonstrably 
> and woefully wrong.
> 
> Along the same lines: in a sad bit of irony, people who complain about 
> the "Happy Holidays" movement limiting their 1st amendment rights 
> actually have it backwards.
> 
> Regards,
> Jon Heese
> 
> Jack Stiefel wrote:
> 
>>No Chuck you were short sweet and to the point.  Which ever decision you make be it either a day to celebrate Christs birth, one of obscene amount of gift giving, one of just a day off to spend with your family, or to celebrate other religious holidays (Cha,Quans, etc.)m have a good one.
>>
>>I think that's why it is being coined Happpy Holidays as there are several different holidays being honored.
>>
>>Have a good Holiday, eat too much, bring doggy bags, go to church if you do, stay home and watch It's A Wonderful Life and A Christmas Story if you don't, and last but definitely not least God Bless you and yours.
>>
>>Jack Stiefel - Tampa, FL
>>DMC VIN 03461 & 16879
>>www.fmtimemachine.com
>>Join us in The Lounge at http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/DMCLounge/
>>
>>Sent wirelessly from my Treo 650.  Please be gentle with spelling errors.
>>
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Chuck McKnight <gullwingdoors@xxxxxxxxx>
>>Sent: 5 Dec 2005 21:13:53 -0000
>>Subject: Re: [DMCForum] Mistletoe belt buckles, naked chicks and hummers...
>>
>>Christmas is DEFINATELY a religious holiday.  Unfortunately, in todays world it is becoming less and less of one.  I hate the whole movement going on to take Christ out of Christmas, and replace it with "happy holidays".  Technically the date is wrong, yes, but Christmas is still a celebration of Christ's birth, and that's the way it should stay.
>>   
>>  Thanksgiving, believe it or not, is also a religious holliday.  It was started as a day to give thanks to God for what he has done, and how great he is.  It too, however, has been corrupted until it is nothing more than a day off school and lots of turkey.  (I'm all for those too, but Americans would do well to remember it's true origin.)
>>   
>>  Ok, I'm done.  Sorry if this is too much religios talk for this forum, but I had to jump in and add my say.
>>   
>>   
>>  Chuck
>>
>>Jon Heese <dmcforum@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>  Wow.  I strongly disagree, Ryan.  I'm actually at a loss for where to 
>>begin responding to this...  I'm floored that someone actually believes 
>>this.
>>
>>Growing up, I always celebrated Christmas, and I probably always will, 
>>even if the religious aspect fades into the background.  But I've been 
>>friends with Jews, Muslims and Jehovah's Witnesses whose feelings range 
>>from disinterest to anger at the way society pushes the holiday on 
>>everyone, regardless of faith.
>>
>>I hope you're not saying you don't realize that.
>>
>>Beyond my firsthand knowledge that there are people who don't 
>>like/celebrate Christmas, while the religious aspect of the holiday is 
>>not usually the focus, Christmas is a steadfastly Christian tradition, 
>>and as such, will never be a "national" holiday.
>>
>>Thanksgiving commemorates a significant time in the history of the 
>>nation and has no direct ties to any religion; it doesn't single anyone 
>>out.  Likewise, New Years is celebrated by people of almost all faiths 
>>(even if the date of the first day of the year is sometimes seen 
>>differently; since the world pretty much uses the same calendar, it's 
>>certainly not exclusive to one religion).  Christmas only exists because 
>>of the Chrisitan tradition, and is very specific to Christianity.
>>
>>Now, I do see your point that wishing someone a Merry Christmas is 
>>hardly starting a religious discssion, but I also see Mar's point of 
>>making it clear that Christmas is far from a universal holiday.  I think 
>>that needs to be recognized.
>>
>>Regards,
>>Jon Heese
>>
>>Ryan Wright wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On 12/5/05, Marc Levy <malevy_nj@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>How do you know Dave celebrates Christmas?
>>>>
>>>>I thought there was no religion allowed in here
>>>>anymore.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Don't start, Marc. That was not a religious conversation.
>>>
>>>Christmas is a national holiday. Wishing somebody a Merry Christmas is
>>>no different than wishing a Happy Thanksgiving, Happy New Year, etc.
>>>It's a polite gesture that says, "Enjoy the upcoming holiday." Whether
>>>that person celebrates it doesn't matter, December 25th is Christmas
>>>and I hope everyone, religious or not, has a wonderful time.
>>>
>>>--
>>>- Ryan
>>>http://www.memfrag.com - Store your bookmarks. On every computer.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
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