Re: [DMCForum] CENSORSHIP

[Jon Heese <dmcforum@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]

I guess I'm all but alone in still agreeing with the original credo of 
the group.  If I did believe that it was destined for disaster, then so 
be it.  Changing the nature of the group "ruined" it for the people who 
actually did believe in its free-form nature.  I see it as a analog of 
natural selection in Yahoo Groups.  If it died, and a niche actually 
existed for a group with the current rules, such a group would naturally 
come about to take its place.  The way we did it, the original group had 
no chance to live or die; its fate was mandated by an offshoot of its 
followers.  Hardly kosher, I think.  Nothing short of a unanimous vote 
is sufficient to "mandate" a change like that.

I don't think polls are necessary or even appropriate at all on these 
topics.  If the group doesn't like the topic, it will be squelched.  If 
members leave the group before that happens, then their 
views/expectations didn't match those of the group.  I don't hold the 
population of the group higher than the point of the group itself, so I 
think the former should be sacrificed first.  Nothing says the 
"refugees" can't start a new group.  But there is something unfair about 
pulling a perfectly good group out from under those members with no beef.

Sadly, I believe that while Marc has good intentions most of the time, 
he has next to nothing in the way of tact.  I am solidly in favor of a 
peaceable, respectful demeanor on the list, but also solidly against 
placing the power into the hands of any subset of its members to demand 
such.  To me, Marc's adversarial attitude is half of the reason why this 
group is in its current castrated state, and I'd cringe when he'd write 
a well-thought out, but poorly worded jab at someone instead of 
addressing the issue civilly and intelligently.  Of course, I feel the 
other half of the blame lies with those who screamed/whined back at him.

I agree entirely with "cool down" and "take it off-list" suggestions.  I 
just think they should come from regular list members, not 
self-appointed authority figures.  If the group were truly opposed to 
the occurrence, it would work itself out.

Regards,
Jon Heese

timnagin wrote:
> Jon,
> 
> There really is no censorship and nothing has really changed.  The only
> addition is that if someone gets out of hand there are now consequences for
> doing so.  This applies to everyone, including the moderators.
> 
> Based on my off-list conversations with Marc, at literally forty plus emails
> and six hours, I feel he does believe we tried to push him out.  I can
> assure everyone that is simply not the case.  I think Marc has a lot to
> offer the community and have told him so.
> 
> There were several off-list discussions about these changes and Marc agreed
> to adhere to the rules even though he did not agree with them.  He obviously
> did not and action was taken; the very action he agreed to abide by.
> 
> There was a mistake made while trying to only ban him from posting, and he
> would have had access to all other aspects of the group, but he was removed
> from the list in error.  I spent some time last night trying to get it
> corrected and sent him an invitation.  He acknowledging receiving the
> invitation but stated he would not rejoin the list unless it went back to
> how it was.
> 
> Marc has an open invitation and can re-join at any time but he, like the
> rest of us, have to play by the rules.  The rules, I think, are extremely
> lax no matter how you look at it.  As I stated before, no group settings
> have been changed at all so anyone can really post anything they want but we
> need to moderate ourselves.
> 
> For what it's worth I am a political junkie but I voted not to have it on
> this list.  If the majority had voted to keep politics on here then I would
> be joining in that as well, or would leave the group.
> 
> I hope that makes sense and if you, or anyone, have any questions please let
> me know.
> 
> Greg
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DMCForum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:DMCForum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
> Of Jon Heese
> Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 9:22 PM
> To: DMCForum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [DMCForum] CENSORSHIP
> 
> I've listened to the viewpoints of those in favor of the new system with 
> as open of a mind as I can have, but still can't convince myself that 
> the whole change doesn't betray the initial impetus behind the group's 
> establishment.
> 
> I honestly think that the "many" that Ryan references below don't 
> actually outweigh the "few" by as much as some might have us believe.  I 
> think the polls on the subject were incomplete at best, as they did not 
> address by what rules the offense would be identified (i.e. what, 
> specifically, counts as political, religious?) or by whom it would be 
> identified as such.  Incidentally, they did not mention the creation of 
> a body of "moderators" with administrative control over the group members.
> 
> I applaud the moderators for making all administrative actions public, 
> but it's ironic how it only seems to underscore the pettiness of the 
> whole process.
> 
> I had an off-list discussion with Dave about the subject before the 
> recent administrative change, and he seemed to be cooperative and to 
> want to resolve the matter intelligently.  I have not talked directly to 
> Ryan or Greg about anything, but you both seem very smart and logical. 
> I'm just not sure what makes the three of you so intolerant of what you 
> don't like to hear to the point of whining, and then near-despotic 
> control in the guise of a mandate from the majority.  It's cliche, but I 
> believe in the whole "catching more flies with honey" adage, and this 
> moderator situation smells like a big steaming bowl of vinegar to me.
> 
> Your almost immediate banning of Marc (for a violation not addressed in 
> the polls, by the way) *seemed* very transparent and self-serving.  I'm 
> not claiming any foul play here, I do think it smells a little funny, 
> for what I think are obvious reasons.
> 
> Really, I think what happens here on this forum affects us all very 
> little in the end.  I happen to enjoy this particular discussion because 
> it makes me think hard about the politics of the group and what I 
> believe to be its best strategy for self-government.  Thank you all for 
> letting me opine and for responding civilly.  I welcome your thoughts.
> 
> Regards,
> Jon Heese
> 
> Ryan Wright wrote:
> 
>>On 10/5/05, timnagin <timnagin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>For example, when several people on the list start screaming back
>>>at someone to please stop and they don't, that is probably past the point.
>>
>>
>>This is, basically, why we are now enforcing a few rules around here.
>>To ensure the few don't ruin it for the many. This is also why we've
>>chosen to make moderator actions public. Not to embarass individuals
>>or "flex our muscle", but to ensure we ourselves don't ruin it for the
>>many. It holds us to some level of accountability.
>>
>>-Ryan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
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> 
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> 
> 
> 
>

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