[DMCForum] Re: Looking for Captain Hydrogen

["captain_hydrogen" <captainhydrogen@xxxxxxx>]

Joe P.,

You are correct in saying that hydrogen is explosive, but keep in 
mind, so is gasoline and in every way hydrogen is safer than gasoline.

Consider accident scenarios:

A gasoline powered car is in an accident and there is a fuel leak.  
In modern manufacturing gasoline tanks are made with either blow 
molded plastic tanks or with seam welded stamped sheet metal.  Fuel 
lines are a combination stainless steel and synthetic line.  The 
stainless lines are most likely to bend in an accident so the likely 
rupture point will be along the synthetic fuel line or it will be a 
fuel tank failure.  If the line is cut, there will be a faster loss 
of gasoline. If the tank ruptures, then the loss of liquid gasoline 
will be enormous.  Gasoline will leak, pool, and vaporize, but 
because it is heavier than the ambient air it will remain localized 
to the accident scene until it dissipates by wind or until the 
Hazardous Materials crew has quarantined the area.  If any of the 
vaporized gasoline comes in contact with a heat source of 536 degrees 
F or greater, then there will be an explosion.  If the gasoline pools 
in a ditch or off the paved surfaced, then some will permeate the 
soil while the rest vaporizes and both are ground and air pollutants.

A hydrogen powered car is in an accident and there is a fuel leak.  
Gaseous hydrogen storage tanks as approved by the Department of 
Transportation, such as those manufactured by The CNG Cylinder 
Company or by Structural Composites Industries (SCI) 
(www.scicomposites.com) are carbon fiber wrapped spun aluminum and 
are designed to withstand and pass severe auto impact, 357 gunfire, 
high temperature bonfire, and dynamite testing and as far as I have 
observed, were only punctured with an armor piercing round fired from 
an M16.  Unless the car has been rear ended by a 747, it is unlikely 
to rupture.  All of the fuel lines are stainless steel and are burst 
tested to 12,000 psi. (Keep in mind that DOT currently restricts 
pressurized gas storage to 3,600 psi. in most cases, but will allow 
4,500 and 6,000 on occasion.)  In all of the testing scenarios the 
only fail point was the pressure relief device on the compressed gas 
cylinder.  This is designed to vent the hydrogen directly to the 
atmosphere usually at the opposite end of the vehicle from the 
engine.  For the sake of argument let's say the pressure relief 
device opens and releases hydrogen.  The hydrogen escapes almost 
immediately upward at a rate 14x lighter than ambient air.  Unless 
there is a arcing heat source of 1,080 degrees F at the periphery of 
where the hydrogen meets atmospheric oxygen there will be no ignition 
of the hydrogen.  This scenario is true even if the fuel line or 
compressed gas cylinder is ruptured.  If there is ignition of the 
hydrogen, it will remain only where the periphery of hydrogen and 
oxygen meet and will burn almost upward.  Again, ignition would 
require 1,080 degrees F at the hydrogen cloud's periphery where it 
meet atmospheric oxygen.  In the case of cryogenic hydrogen, the 
spill would immediately cryogenically freeze the road and then the 
hydrogen would immediately evaporate and dissipate upward at a rate 
14x lighter than ambient air.

On my hydrogen powered go-kart the driver sits between to SCI ALT-604 
cylinders rated to allow 4,500 psi.  Having these cylinders in a 
horizontal position greatly lowers the center of gravity and improves 
driver safety by lending themselves to being side impact protection.  
Their shape and construction allows them to with stand enormous 
forces.

When you said, "I really doubt compressed hydrogen will catch on as a 
wide spread consumer fuel source.  The hydrogen fuel cells however, 
those could be somewhat safer than simply powering the engine off 
compressed hydrogen, simply because there is significantly less 
plumbing that is likely to leak.  If you want to convert you DeLorean 
to an alternate fuel source definitely go with the fuel cell.  It's 
quieter and safer."  It sounds as if you believe that a Hydrogen Fuel 
Cell actually stores hydrogen.  It doesn't.  A Hydrogen Fuel Cell is 
another way to convert chemical energy into useable electrical 
current for use with an electric motor.  Both Internal Combustion 
Engines (ICE) and Fuel Cell Electric (FCE) vehicles store hydrogen in 
exactly the same way.  ICE uses hydrogen instead of gasoline and FCE 
uses hydrogen instead of batteries.  Hydrogen in its most simple of 
terms is a "Universal Energy Carrier".

Please let me know if you have any other questions.

Thank you,
Ben Ferguson (Captain Hydrogen)
Arizona DeLorean Club (www.az-d.org), Car Cruise Director - VIN 10365
American Hydrogen Association (www.clean-air.org), Member of the 
Board of Directors
Sonoran Scientific, LLC (Personal Interest and part time Renewable 
Hydrogen Energy Systems R&D), Owner
captainhydrogen@xxxxxxx

--- In DMCForum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Palatinus, Joe" <jopalatinus@xxxx> 
wrote:
> What no one seems to mention about using compressed hydrogen in 
vehicles, is that it is very explosive.  (and because it is a gas, it 
is much more volatile that liquid fuel sources such as gasoline).  
Although I am sure (compressed) hydrogen powered cars could be 
designed to be safe for driving, I would be very concerned about 
getting into an accident with a tank of hydrogen.
> Think about it, if two normal cars crash into eachother and one of 
their fuel lines is a little broken so there is a small fuel drip, 
every one involved would have a much better chance of not exploding 
into a ball of flames, than if the car had hydrogen fuel and the 
hydrogen gas were be pissing out (in which case there would be a BIG 
explosion).  I really doubt compressed hydrogen will catch on as a 
wide spread consumer fuel source.  The hydrogen fuel cells however, 
those could be somewhat safer than simply powering the engine off 
compressed hydrogen, simply because there is significantly less 
plumbing that is likely to leak.  If you want to convert you delorean 
to an alternate fuel source definately go with the fuel cell.  Its 
quieter and safer.
> my 2 cents
> Joe P.
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

---

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