Re: [doc] Re: "new" new cars

["Lloyd Bonson" <lloyd_bonson@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

Hi Martin

I should explain a bit more about Common-Rail Diesels for things to make 
sense.

Firstly, just a quick explaination on Common-Rail for those who don't know.  
The basic principle is to pressureise the fuel so that it atomises, thus 
improving the power output from the smae amount of fuel used.

The early Common-Rail engines that came out, were made by Renault, 
Mercedes-Benz and BMW.  These are known as 1st Generation style engines, 
because of the limit to the presure at which the fuel is delievered.

Ford decided instead of wasting time developing a 1st generation engine and 
then deoing development on 2nd generation, which has a higher fuel pressure, 
to go straight on with work on 2nd generation technology, which has been 
used by Ford since 2001.

It was because of this development that PSA have done a deal with Ford for 
joint developemnt/building of diesel engines in Europe.

You are correct that the HDi engines are the first common-rail engines 
build/used by PSA, in the same way the the TDCi engines are the first from 
Ford, but they utilise 2nd generation technology.

What are Ford unimpressed with?

Firstlt, the build quality of engines out of PSA is not as high as Ford 
expect from their own factories.  There are currently 2,500 1.4 diesel 
engines sitting in Cologne for Fiesta/Fusion that have come from PSA that 
are going to be scrapped because of cracks in the blocks.  These cracks were 
not picked up by PSA's quilty control checks.

Secondaly, there have also been some problems with the supplier PSA use for 
Diesel Particulate Filters.  These are like a Catalytic Converter for diesel 
engines and are required to meet the Euro Stage 4 emiisions which will 
become law in most EC countries from next year.  The average life of the 
DPF's on the engines from PSA is currently not more than about 10,000 miles. 
  Ford use a different supplier on the engines they build and by all 
accounts there has been no reported problem of any of them going wrong 
whilst in retail service.

For these reasons ford has decided to build their own versions of the same 
engines in Dagenham from next year.

HDi's never go wrong - interesting question that.  My friend has a Peugeot 
407 2.0HDi, was deleivered in December, has had two changes on Diesel 
Particulate Filter, a new ECU because the earthing point was correctly 
connected and a new turbo because of contimination during production - in 
less than 4,000 miles.

Just in case you're wondering which engines are made by who in which 
vehicle, here we go:-

PSA make:-

1.4:- all PSA, Ford Fiesta, Fusion
1.6:- all PSA, Ford Fiesta, Fusion, Focus, Focus C-MAX
2.0:- all PSA, Ford Focus, Focus C-Max

Ford make:-

1.8:- Ford Focus, Transit Connect
2.0:- Ford Mondeo, Transit, Jag X-Type
2.2:- Ford Mondeo, all PSA
2.4:- Ford Transit
2.7:- all PSA, Jag S-Tpye, Land Rover, Range Rover

Hope it all helps

Lloyd


>
>Lloyd Bonson wrote:
>
> >PSA Peugeot-Citroen - in a joint development program with Ford on all 
>diesel
> >engines.  In fact PSA decided to work with Ford because Ford were further
> >ahead on developement with 2nd generation Common-Rail technology than 
>anyone
> >else.  In fact, the diesel engines in PSAcars have more to do with design
> >work done by Ford in Merkenrich, Germany & Dunton, Essex than anything 
>the
> >French have done.  To prove the point, Ford are so disspointed by the
> >engines that PSA are making, they're setting up their own production line
> >for the same 1.4 & 1.6 diesel engine variant in Dagenham, because the
> >quality is better.
> >
> >
>Hi Lloyd
>
>I'm curious - you say second generation common rail, but the HDi is the
>first common rail engine Pug/Cit have used. And what exactly have Ford
>got to be unimpressed with? Excellent economy, reliability, emissions
>and power...... must be missing something here. My turbo has only blown
>because of overspinning after an intercooler hose split. This could
>happen to any TD engine. I've asked a lot of people-who-should-know
>about my error codes and they all look at me blankly and say "HDi's
>never go wrong".
>
>All the best
>
>Martin




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