Re: [DML] Rob Grady's Personal Lower Suspension

[Bob <Delorean3@xxxxxxx>]

Kayo,

Educating us is not offensive. You have no need to apologize. You are absolutely right about modifications and insurance and it's important for me and many other people to be aware of the risk. Thank you for bringing that subject up.

boB
16909

www.bobcutrupi.com



On Nov 9, 2011, at 9:03 PM, "K.L. (KAYO) Ong" <klo@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> Since I had read some of the advance postings, I will not entertain  
> this e-mail...
> 
> I am apologizing to the community if I have offended anyone...
> 
> People NEED to be told and made aware of the facts in the legal  
> responsibility of any mods.  Just to share a concern, I know of a  
> young man who went bankrupt due to a mod he did to his car.  Bottom  
> line, the insurance company found  way to relinquish their obligation  
> to cover the suit because of the mod.
> 
> Dave and I think alike thus our comments.  Dave is school and  
> certified in the automotive.  I am in the aviation.  So on that note,  
> people do what you do you feel best when making mods, just remember  
> all that is said by all parties....
> 
> Kayo Ong
> #5508
> Lic 9D NY
> 
> 
> 
> On Nov 9, 2011, at 5:23 PM, content22207 wrote:
> 
>> Please limit this discussion to the front end lower suspension  
>> only. Fuel delivery has absolutely nothing to with it.
>> 
>> I installed parts manufactured and sold by DMC franchises, and by  
>> Heninger & Associates. Why do you keep insinuating that my front  
>> end is "backyard" and "shade tree" engineered? Let me say this once  
>> again, real slowly (try to keep up this time): I  
>> I...N...S...T...A...L...L...E...D P...A...R...T...S  
>> M...A...N...U...F...A...C...T...U...R...E...D A...N...D  
>> S...O...L...D B...Y L...O...N...G T...I...M...E  
>> E...S...T...A...B...U...L...I...S...H...E...D  
>> D...e...L...O...R...E...A...N S...E...R...V...I...V...E  
>> C...E...N...T...E...R...S. Are you insinuating that Ed Uding, Dave  
>> Swingle, and Byrne Heninger are backyard/shade tree mechanics? If  
>> not, you really ought to stop using those terms in this discussion.  
>> I installed Ed Uding's brackets, sold by Dave Swingle, and Byrne  
>> Heninger's lower control arms -- period. Nothing more, nothing less.
>> 
>> As much as you seem to want to dictate my insurance decisions, it  
>> my my unhappy task to inform you that insurance is my own private  
>> business. I am a grown man, perfectly capable of managing my own  
>> affairs. You have absolutely no input into what investments I make,  
>> what food I eat, what clothes I wear, etc. Neither do you have any  
>> input into my insurance purchases. That is my business alone.
>> 
>> I am terribly sorry that my front end improvements are creating  
>> such anxiety for you. Perhaps it would be best for you to avoid  
>> reading any more posts in this thread. The thread itself has value  
>> -- I have been communicating with two other owners who are  
>> interested in doing the same, including butting Ed's brackets  
>> against hardened steel washers rather than the shock towers  
>> themselves. You obviously feel otherwise. Use your OEM suspension  
>> in good health, and hopefully it will never break on you.
>> 
>> Bill Robertson
>> #5939
>> 
>> --- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "K.L. (KAYO) Ong" <klo@...> wrote:
>>> 
>>> "Why?"
>>> 
>>> First, because I see a similar pattern of the" front end" thread
>>> being exploited as the "carburetor" thread in the past AND the  
>> people
>>> JUST FADED away from the continuation of the fruitless  
>> discussions...
>>> Just as well as another delicate subject of the founder and creator
>>> of the DMC not too long ago.... (Although you are right on many  
>> points.)
>>> 
>>> Second, you must understand that I am not questioning your  
>> talents or
>>> your greatness in the ability to conjure up a more efficient device
>>> or working systems for any part or system for the DeLorean. (I
>>> thought you would like to hear that "positive" pat on the back.)
>>> 
>>> Thirdly, and you STILL haven't address the MAIN issue of insurance
>>> with either topics!!! That is MY ONLY question and the
>>> "discussion"... INSURANCE COVERAGE!!! The question of legal
>>> responsibility in case there is a liability problem when the "said"
>>> part or set up fails!!! You must understand, there are many young or
>>> naive people reading these posts about your conversions and they  
>> need
>>> to be told of THEIR responsibilities in case they follow your  
>> ways in
>>> doing these conversions.... (I have gotten calls from young owners
>>> asking for an opinion of your postings.)
>>> 
>>> Fourthly, and AGAIN, you use references to the various businesses  
>> and
>>> the people you had mentioned to justified or to compare your front
>>> end design. The difference is that they are (and should) be backed
>>> up by an insurance policy? That MAKES them legal and liable when
>>> they are doing business. Which MEANS, if their parts, components and
>>> services fails or faults, THERE IS the insurance policy that will
>>> back them. A "Back yard" mechanics and "Shade Tree" mechanics HAVE
>>> NO insurance to back them, UNLESS they do "hold a policy" as to  
>> cover
>>> their work and the components that are installed. And in the
>>> industries, these part and set ups that are not recognized are  
>> called
>>> "Rube Goldberg" and etc....
>>> 
>>> Lastly, will you back up someone who takes on your design and there
>>> is a mishap in your design/engineering? Just remember, when there is
>>> a failure which causes "Bodily Harm" (including death) and there IS
>>> NO insurance or approval, WHO IS GOING TO BE YOUR DADDY? As I have
>>> said, your front end (and or carburetor) are not the question, just
>>> the subject of liability that is associate to them.
>>> 
>>> I am sure those reading these posts will understand my direction of
>>> my thread...
>>> 
>>> Kayo Ong
>>> #5508
>>> Lic 9D NY
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Nov 9, 2011, at 9:30 AM, content22207 wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Why are you even mentioning carburetion? This discussion is about
>>>> front end lower suspension. Please keep the discussion on topic.
>>>> 
>>>> My front end is upgraded with a brackets that appear to be DMCH
>>>> approved, and Byrnes LCA's. You can complain about Byrne's  
>> LCA's if
>>>> you want, but note that they are not worlds removed from Bryan's
>>>> LCA's that Houston used to sell, and which Houston is still using
>>>> for its own purposes.
>>>> 
>>>> Bill Robertson
>>>> #5939
>>>> 
>>>> --- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "K.L. (KAYO) Ong" <klo@> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Bill:
>>>>> 
>>>>> You say: "DMCH markets itself as the closet thing to Dummury"  
>> and
>>>> you
>>>>> added that "hardly 'backyard'." I am not sure of your
>>>>> implication??? The DMHC operating as a business should have  
>> business
>>>>> insurance. The business insurance should have an "umbrella  
>> coverage"
>>>>> as to back up the products they sell, why we as customer  
>> would not
>>>>> worry about the products brought.
>>>>> 
>>>>> As I have said, people can conjured up and make nice workable
>>>>> modifications.... And these mods may work well... But, when the
>>>>> modified parts fails, what will be the outlook and the  
>> position that
>>>>> the underwriting insurance company take?
>>>>> 
>>>>> And as far as the other "stateside DMC franchise" vendors  
>> selling
>>>>> another person or company's manufactured products, it only means
>>>> that
>>>>> they sell the parts. And again, hopefully for them that they  
>> have
>>>>> business insurance or product liability insurance to cover
>>>> themselves
>>>>> as well.
>>>>> 
>>>>> You brought up Rob's Green DeLorean, I am sure Rob has his  
>> business
>>>>> insurance to cover his Green DeLoreans front end. I do  
>> believe that
>>>>> when he puts his "NYS Dealer" plates on it, there is an umbrella
>>>>> coverage? Also, if Rob does something to his Green DeLorean  
>> and for
>>>>> what he ALSO do for his customer, he ALWAYS has "liability"  
>> with the
>>>>> products or service on his mind... Do ask me and I will personal
>>>> tell
>>>>> you on several issues!!!
>>>>> 
>>>>> As for Ed Uding, he should have insurance for the products he  
>> sells
>>>>> as well and all of the people that are involved in selling his
>>>>> products? (Foolish if he and they don't.)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Many DMLers have seen your front-end creation and you maybe  
>> right on
>>>>> your findings and many will side with you to the point that  
>> owners
>>>>> will consider your findings as gospel and they will installed  
>> your
>>>>> mods into their DeLoreans. Now suppose, let's say some years  
>> or a
>>>>> decade goes by and something really drastic happens to a  
>> converted
>>>>> DeLorean where "bodily harm" is involved. Do you think the  
>> insurance
>>>>> of the DeLorean involved will be covered when they discovered  
>> the
>>>>> undocumented conversion is the caused of the problem? I  
>> believe the
>>>>> insurance company will not cover the damages of property and the
>>>>> people involved, because it was not disclosed to them (lied or
>>>>> deceptive)...
>>>>> 
>>>>> I am curious, if your insurance policy covers your modify  
>> DeLorean?
>>>>> Do you or have you the need to inform them that your DeLorean  
>> front
>>>>> end is no longer original and modified?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Bill, I really don't know you or your lifestyle. You are  
>> articulate
>>>>> and do come off very well in depth in what you believe and  
>> what you
>>>>> do with your DeLorean and you do have an adequate answer for all
>>>> when
>>>>> questioned. I can respect that, but in these cases your  
>> carburetor
>>>>> mod and the front-end mod are two major differences when  
>> something
>>>>> should go wrong. You need to tell people that failure is an  
>> option
>>>>> as well... As for your car, the worst that can happen with your
>>>>> carburetor modification is fire to your DeLorean and will stop
>>>>> running and on the worst, you may not get paid by the insurance.
>>>>> With the front end and whilst in motion, it can be disastrous  
>> for
>>>>> people in the DeLorean and the innocent people around the  
>> DeLorean
>>>>> should failure arises. But on the other hand, your modified  
>> front
>>>>> end can last forever... Who knows... Insurance is the my only  
>> issue
>>>>> on my long winding thread with the mods/conversions.... Nothing
>>>> more,
>>>>> nothing less. Remember, a suer can change your world if there is
>>>>> "no" or "inadequate" insurance coverage...
>>>>> 
>>>>> BTW, FWIW, two years ago I had witness on the I-495 Eastbound  
>> of the
>>>>> Long Island Expressway's shoulder, there was a brand new bright
>>>>> Yellow Ferrari with the right side of front end down with the  
>> bumper
>>>>> sitting on wheel that was lying flat on the road. It seems to  
>> me the
>>>>> front end had collapsed. The Ferrari had not struck any other  
>> car on
>>>>> the road. Luck for him it was a just an embracement for there  
>> was a
>>>>> very long tattletale skid mark from the road right into the dirt
>>>>> shoulder. When all of these threads of the front-end mods  
>> came on
>>>>> the DML, all that came to my mind was the Bright Yellow  
>> Ferrari on
>>>>> the side of the road....
>>>>> 
>>>>> Kayo Ong
>>>>> #5508
>>>>> Lic. 9D NY
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Nov 8, 2011, at 7:42 PM, content22207 wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> DMCH markets itself as the closest thing to Dunmurry -- hardly
>>>>>> "backyard." Ed Uding's brackets are made by one DMC  
>> franchise, and
>>>>>> sold stateside by another DMC franchise, so I assume they have
>>>>>> Houston's blessing.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Bill Robertson
>>>>>> #5939
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --- In dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "K.L. (KAYO) Ong" <klo@>  
>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Mike:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Thank you for your reply. I had expected an answer of such.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> It is great for everyone to talk about the enhanced
>>>> performance and
>>>>>>> the achievements to produce the components, but no one is
>>>> addressing
>>>>>>> the liability area when the modified component fails....
>>>> Especially
>>>>>>> the front end components of this subject.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> When one thinks about modifying their cars and they  
>> should check
>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> their insurance provider to see if they will cover the
>>>>>>> modifications. Without informing the insurance company to  
>> the
>>>>>>> installed modifications, most likely the insurance companies
>>>> will
>>>>>>> quickly look at it as a loophole and to avoid offering  
>> any legal
>>>>>>> support and payment when the disaster occurs. Although to  
>> get
>>>>>>> coverage is not impossible, I was told that some insurance
>>>> companies
>>>>>>> would cover ANYTHING if the "premiums" were in THEIR favor,
>>>> so one
>>>>>>> will pay a pricey premium for the coverage.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The differences with components from established companies
>>>> and home
>>>>>>> brew parts are the companies who are advertising and selling
>>>> their
>>>>>>> modify components should have some type of insurance? For if
>>>> they
>>>>>>> are operating as a company, they should have product  
>> liability
>>>>>>> insurance as to cover their products? So, the purchaser  
>> who have
>>>>>>> these components correctly installed can hold the company
>>>>>> responsible
>>>>>>> for law suit resulting from failures that can incur?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The independent person as a "back yard mechanic" or  
>> "shade tree
>>>>>>> mechanic" operating on their own with their "home brewed  
>> parts,"
>>>>>>> usually has no product liability or a business insurance
>>>> coverage
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> that can be a legal liability problem for the owner of the
>>>> vehicle
>>>>>>> involved.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Modifications can be a great thing for the car owner with  
>> the
>>>>>>> installed mod components and it can become costly and life
>>>> changing
>>>>>>> when they fail without the insurance coverage.... And the  
>> way
>>>> people
>>>>>>> are instigated to sue heavily by their lawyer -- They  
>> will be
>>>> suing
>>>>>>> for everything (for they get at least one third of the
>>>> awardment).
>>>>>>> In today's climate with lawsuits, a basic coverage is not
>>>> enough...
>>>>>>> If the insurance company don't cover the suit completely,
>>>> then one
>>>>>>> can be held responsible for the balance and be in  
>> bankruptcy?
>>>> Not a
>>>>>>> good thing....
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Kayo Ong
>>>>>>> #5508
>>>>>>> Lic 9D NY
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Nov 8, 2011, at 4:19 PM, Michael Griese wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Nobody here can answer that question accurately. You would
>>>> need to
>>>>>>>> take it up
>>>>>>>> with your insurance company in your state. As an example,
>>>> whatever
>>>>>>>> State Farm
>>>>>>>> covers in New York may not be the same as what State Farm
>>>>>> covers in
>>>>>>>> Minnesota or
>>>>>>>> what Geico would cover in New York.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>>> From: K.L. (KAYO) Ong <klo@>
>>>>>>>> To: dmcnews@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>> Sent: Tue, November 8, 2011 2:56:29 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [DML] Rob Grady's Personal Lower Suspension
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I had posted a question a while back on this subject  
>> and it
>>>> was
>>>>>> left
>>>>>>>> unanswered. These modifications by everyone are a major
>>>> structural
>>>>>>>> change for the front end. I believed all these  
>> modifications
>>>>>> are not
>>>>>>>> the original DMC engineering from decades ago that are on
>>>> filed as
>>>>>>>> DMC-12. Although the modifications ARE improvements. The
>>>>>>>> questions are: What happens and if there is a failure  
>> and and
>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>> are "property" and or "bodily harm" caused by failure?  
>> Will
>>>> the
>>>>>>>> insurance company STILL cover the mishap? Or will they  
>> wash
>>>> their
>>>>>>>> hands of the matter? I am curious and not cleared in this
>>>> area.
>>>>>> Law
>>>>>>>> suits can be a financial disaster, if not life changing if
>>>>>> there is
>>>>>>>> no coverage for the modifications.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Kayo Ong
>>>>>>>> #5508
>>>>>>>> Lic 9D NY
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
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